All that is a lead in to what will be a sort-of mini-battle report for a recent game I played with Vlad3. This one is going to be lighter in regards to the blow-by-blow recount, but it still affords a good opportunity to think about Vlad3, his list theory, and what to do with all that.
Breakdown after the break.
Down...there.
Ahem.
My List:
Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey (*5pts)
* Beast-09 (11pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Greylord Outriders (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard (2pts)
Fenris (5pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Kovnik Andrei Malakov (3pts)
* Ruin (10pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Objective: Effigy of Valor
* Dire Troll Mauler (9pts)
* Mountain King (20pts)
* Trollkin Runebearer (2pts)
Krielstone Bearer and 3 Stone Scribes (3pts)
Trollkin Highwaymen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Trollkin Warders (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Braylen Wanderheart, Trollkin Outlaw (3pts)
Stone Scribe Chronicler (2pts)
This is one of the "Vlad3 + Malakov" lists I've been kicking around. One of the concerns I have for Vlad3 is that he may be hurting a bit for hitting power. He also has some neat interactions with some warjacks on his feat turn, but doesn't really want to be fueling more than one warjack. That seemed like a good excuse to get Malakov on the table (aside: this is the first time I've used the model since I got it as part of the Warmachine: Tactics Kickstarter....yikes). Everything else is fairly standard, with the one noteworthy exception being the inclusion of the normal Pikemen UA (I didn't want to have to wedge Saxon into the list for, effectively, one unit).
My Opponent's List:
Captain Gunnbjorn (*5pts)* Dire Troll Mauler (9pts)
* Mountain King (20pts)
* Trollkin Runebearer (2pts)
Krielstone Bearer and 3 Stone Scribes (3pts)
Trollkin Highwaymen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Trollkin Warders (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Braylen Wanderheart, Trollkin Outlaw (3pts)
Stone Scribe Chronicler (2pts)
Objective: Fuel Cache
Surprise Mountain King! My friend threw this list together the day after the errata as a "for fun" experiment to see how much Assault helps the big lug out. Gunnbjorn seemed like the best place to maximize those sprays, and the Rock Wall helps to protect it a bit as well. Similar to my Vlad3 list, everything else is fairly standard "good models" fare.
Aside: I am deeply sorry that I didn't take pictures of this game. Having to do it in short form is one thing, but much more of a waste than that is missing out on capturing my friend's awesomely painted Mountain King. It doesn't often see the table (for reasons that I think everyone can empathize) with. But damn if it doesn't look amazing.
Scenario: SR2015 Two Fronts
Game Breakdown:
Early Game:
Vlad wins the roll off and opts for first turn.
The first round is the usual "get buffs out, everything runs up" turn. The engagements look to be as follows: Outriders vs. Highwaymen and Braylen, Pikemen and Fenris vs. Warders and Dire Troll Mauler, with the support, 'casters, and "core" battlegroups on both sides sort of lurking around, waiting to see how the initial clash plays out.
Fenris crashes into the Warders, killing two of them before he is taken down by the remainder and the Mauler. The Outriders get the first strike on the Highwaymen which is blunted by some Tough rolls, and the Highwaymen and Braylen retaliate to take a couple of the Outriders off the table.
Mid Game:
The Pikemen sweep in on the right flank, taking out Gunnbjorn's objective and the remaining Warders. Vlad and the Outriders work on clearing out the left zone, allowing Vlad to start dominating. Ruin and Beast-09 try to set up to threaten the Mountain King and Mauler, but are stymied by Rock Wall.
The Mountain King and Mauler start into the Pikemen, taking chunks out of the unit. Braylen and the Highwaymen continue to pick off Outriders, leaving just a single one remaining.
Late Game:
Vlad and the remaining Outrider clear out the remaining Trollblood models on the left flank allowing Vlad to continue dominating the zone. The Pikemen and Iron Fang Kovnik throw themselves into the Mauler and Mountain King, causing as much damage as they can.
The Mauler and Moutain King retaliate, wiping out all but a couple of the Pikemen (with the Mountain King doing most of the work via Sweep and Kill Shot yelling).
Game is called due to store closing time.
Final CPs: Vlad 3 - Gunnbjorn 0
Post Game Thoughts:
Double disappointment - not only did I space on taking pictures during the game, but we didn't even finish before we had to pack it up! (Mostly due to getting a later start than expected; we had a really good pace going, especially as everything started dying).
I feel pretty good about where this game was headed. I had my objective flank completely cleaned up which was going to allow Vlad to easily get up to 4 CPs on my turn. I still had my feat (neither of us ended up using our feats during the game), so I would have been able to pretty comfortably deal with anything he ran into the zone to contest while still keeping Vlad in the zone and safe.
I was also going to likely be able to kill the Mauler under the feat turn and keep whatever warjack(s) I sent in to do it safe from reprisal from the Mountain King (it ended up pulled onto the right flank to deal with the Pikemen which left it a little out of position). Overall, I feel pretty confident about being able to get the 2 remaining CPs I needed to close the game out with what I had left.
Things That Went Well:
Most everything went pretty well according to plan, actually. I know better than to try and do anything particularly punchy with Vlad3; he is best when he is doggedly pursuing a scenario win, so I was pushing towards that from the start. Although we didn't get to see how it ultimately played out, I think things were on the right track, and the reason I have confidence in saying that is because everything was going (mostly) as planned.
Things That Did Not Go Well:
Things That Did Not Go Well:
I did caveat that with "mostly".
Although nothing royally flubbed this game, there were a few things I didn't like and/or that forced me into playing models in a way I didn't really enjoy.
Chief among those is the double bubble of trouble that this list has with its two Abomination models. The IFP are insulated against that a bit with their CMD 10 + re-roll, but even with that I was unwilling to risk being exceptionally unlucky (double 11's happen) and screwing myself early in the game.
The bigger issue is that this list has some support models - War Dog, Gorman, and Ragman - that are not Fearless, and not exceptionally courageous either. Fenris is less of an issue as he can fairly easily operate by himself on a flank (though it is nice to keep him in range of possibly coming into Vlad's control area for Dash and feat periodically), but Ruin is much more of an issue.
Ruin ends up being semi-centralized regardless (just due to how Warmachine plays out most of the time) and he ends up pulled even closer to Vlad due to Wind Wall protection and also the need to protect Malakov (by keeping him in Wind Wall or near a good Sac Pawn target).
The result was a tricky game of trying to wedge everything into Wind Wall that I wanted (typically both warjacks + Malakov) while also not spooking any of the nearby support models. I think it is something I could get more used to with practice, but it is definitely a pain.
I also learned this game (and had it reinforced in another game) that Outriders deeply dislike Tough infantry. You're working with a low model/high output unit with them, so you want every one of their attacks that connect to convert into a kill. Having Tough in the mix mucks that up periodically, and the unit isn't big enough to always be able to adapt to those Tough checks (vs. something like Winter Guard Infantry).
Not having or being able to give Pathfinder to either warjack also sucked. Rock Wall was going to keep them boxed out pretty much forever, barring some Side Step shenanigans (which costs me a charge attack bonus and an initial attack).
Although nothing royally flubbed this game, there were a few things I didn't like and/or that forced me into playing models in a way I didn't really enjoy.
Chief among those is the double bubble of trouble that this list has with its two Abomination models. The IFP are insulated against that a bit with their CMD 10 + re-roll, but even with that I was unwilling to risk being exceptionally unlucky (double 11's happen) and screwing myself early in the game.
The bigger issue is that this list has some support models - War Dog, Gorman, and Ragman - that are not Fearless, and not exceptionally courageous either. Fenris is less of an issue as he can fairly easily operate by himself on a flank (though it is nice to keep him in range of possibly coming into Vlad's control area for Dash and feat periodically), but Ruin is much more of an issue.
Ruin ends up being semi-centralized regardless (just due to how Warmachine plays out most of the time) and he ends up pulled even closer to Vlad due to Wind Wall protection and also the need to protect Malakov (by keeping him in Wind Wall or near a good Sac Pawn target).
The result was a tricky game of trying to wedge everything into Wind Wall that I wanted (typically both warjacks + Malakov) while also not spooking any of the nearby support models. I think it is something I could get more used to with practice, but it is definitely a pain.
I also learned this game (and had it reinforced in another game) that Outriders deeply dislike Tough infantry. You're working with a low model/high output unit with them, so you want every one of their attacks that connect to convert into a kill. Having Tough in the mix mucks that up periodically, and the unit isn't big enough to always be able to adapt to those Tough checks (vs. something like Winter Guard Infantry).
Not having or being able to give Pathfinder to either warjack also sucked. Rock Wall was going to keep them boxed out pretty much forever, barring some Side Step shenanigans (which costs me a charge attack bonus and an initial attack).
Key Mistakes/Things To Do Differently:
One of the biggest mistakes I think I made this game was committing Ragman too early. I really wanted to make sure Gunnbjorn's objective died (and with the fewest necessary melee attacks) so I ended up sending him up to put up his Dark Shroud bubble on the turn the Pikemen charged into the objective and some Warders.
Dark Shroud absolutely helped the Pikemen smash what they charged into, but it also made it trivial for my opponent to pick Ragman off the next turn. I think it may have been better to hold Ragman back a turn and just throw the Pikemen in (they had Hand of Fate at the time, so they had exploding dice left and right). That would save Ragman for when the Pikemen charge the Mauler, which makes it more feasible for the handful that I could throw at it to come up with the kill.
Alternatively, I probably could have sent fewer Pikemen in against the Warders; I sent in extra to buffer against Tough checks, which didn't come up. And it made it that much easier for the Mountain King to wipe them all out next turn in reprisal (though I'm sure he could have killed quite a few regardless).
Double alternatively (and with the serious benefit of hindsight) I may have just been better off using Vlad's feat turn to throw Beast-09 into the objective, beat it to death, then Sprint the hell out of dodge. That would have still left Beast in a pretty safe spot (if not entirely safe) and saved the IFP for other work (and thus also saving Ragman). I was reluctant to do it at the time because I figured I would need Vlad's feat for shenangians later (which would have been true), but I also may not have needed those shenanigans had I not thrown away roughly 3 IFP charging the objective.
I also almost made a big mistake near the end of the game when I wandered Ruin away from Malakov. Gunnbjorn shot Ruin and threw him back; thankfully not far enough to put him outside of Malakov's control area, but it wasn't too far off. I even thought about that before moving it, but then dismissed it, which almost cost me. 8" control areas don't give you a lot of wiggle room when your opponent is potentially throwing your stuff all around.
Dark Shroud absolutely helped the Pikemen smash what they charged into, but it also made it trivial for my opponent to pick Ragman off the next turn. I think it may have been better to hold Ragman back a turn and just throw the Pikemen in (they had Hand of Fate at the time, so they had exploding dice left and right). That would save Ragman for when the Pikemen charge the Mauler, which makes it more feasible for the handful that I could throw at it to come up with the kill.
Alternatively, I probably could have sent fewer Pikemen in against the Warders; I sent in extra to buffer against Tough checks, which didn't come up. And it made it that much easier for the Mountain King to wipe them all out next turn in reprisal (though I'm sure he could have killed quite a few regardless).
Double alternatively (and with the serious benefit of hindsight) I may have just been better off using Vlad's feat turn to throw Beast-09 into the objective, beat it to death, then Sprint the hell out of dodge. That would have still left Beast in a pretty safe spot (if not entirely safe) and saved the IFP for other work (and thus also saving Ragman). I was reluctant to do it at the time because I figured I would need Vlad's feat for shenangians later (which would have been true), but I also may not have needed those shenanigans had I not thrown away roughly 3 IFP charging the objective.
I also almost made a big mistake near the end of the game when I wandered Ruin away from Malakov. Gunnbjorn shot Ruin and threw him back; thankfully not far enough to put him outside of Malakov's control area, but it wasn't too far off. I even thought about that before moving it, but then dismissed it, which almost cost me. 8" control areas don't give you a lot of wiggle room when your opponent is potentially throwing your stuff all around.
Noteworthy Model Thoughts:
If you haven't ever tried it, Outriders with Vlad3 are an absolute blast. Hand of Fate is all they really need to kill the majority of the things they'll be going after with good odds of success, and Dash makes them crazy mobile. Having a bunch of SPD 10, free strike immune, magical spraying models (that then get a 5" move afterwards) lets you mulch infantry in style. And with great prejudice.
Malakov is weird. Redline is actually a little tricky to manage if you aren't just throwing the warjack into combat at the first opportunity (or, more relevant: if your opponent doesn't let you just throw the warjack into combat so it ends up hanging around for a few turns). 1 or 2D3 of damage isn't a big deal, but when you start letting that pile up for a couple of turns, it can soften the warjack up enough that a random boostable gun might break something (which was particularly dangerous in this fight).
The workaround is to cast Redline on the warjack every turn after it activates, so you still have it chambered up but aren't accumulating the damage. That worked fine this game, but definitely feels fiddly and it introduces another set of activation orders and positioning conditions you need to keep in mind (move Ruin first, keep it away from things it can scare, then move Malakov into a position to buff Ruin while still being able to Sucker/be in Wind Wall).
It probably wouldn't be so bad in a game where Malakov's warjack wasn't "idling" this long, though this time it at least taught me that cute little workaround for the Redline damage.
It is also worth pointing out that having 10 points of potent melee warjack tied to a squishy 3 point solo is every bit as terrifying as you think it would be. I have a number of "outs" for Malakov getting shot in this list, and I was still sweating him dying the whole time; his low ARM doesn't help, and he is such a juicy target that it is worth taking a risk with something random to see if it pays off.
For as much as the Black Dragon UA has supplanted it (not at all without just cause), there are still some very nice benefits to the normal UA. Having a built-in way to get Pathfinder (only on the charge, but that is usually where you want it the most) that never goes away (go-go Tactics!) helps free up points to be spent elsewhere (since Saxon doesn't feel as necessary). The once-per-game ability is also nice - and probably at its most exploitable with Vlad3 - but that is unfortunately not as useful as it used to be. Not a bad trick to have around though and it does make the unit a good gunline jammer (especially with the Iron Fang Kovnik to give them +2" on the initial movement).
Finally, although I didn't use it myself, I have some thoughts about the Mountain King, post-errata:
I don't think gaining Assault is enough to really get it into list rotation, but it is a definite improvement for the model and it may give the big guy a list or two that it actually fits well into (instead of being a "best of the worst choices" situation).
The practical issue with Assault is that, at base, the Mountain King still has limiters that hold it back. RAT 5 makes it difficult to get a lot of work done without boosting a bunch (which can in turn lead to fury issues). The efficacy of Assaulting with the Mountain King is also going to be constrained by a) the fixed SP10 range of the attack (giving it a very predictable, manageable threat range), and b) the complication that Assaulting forward is likely to put the Mountain King in a very precarious position.
Assault does have some neat implications on the Mountain King, however. At bare minimum, it gives the Mountain King a great way to threaten 'casters: RAT 5 is accurate enough to have a solid shot at hitting most 'casters with a boost, and a boosted POW 16 damage roll is never going to be fun to take on the chin. Or you can use it to try and pick off especially problematic solos (though again, it seems likely that you'll be putting the Mountain King into "please kill me" range to do so).
Assault hits its effective peak when the Mountain King gets: 1) any kind of accuracy boost (making that RAT 5 go further without fury spending), and 2) living models to proc Kill Shot off of. If you can combine those factors (such as with Gunnbjorn, in this fight), you can have turns where the Mountain King does a very respectable amount of work. I don't know that its necessarily 20 points of work (especially considering how relatively easy it is to kill for its cost), but its a far sight better than it used to be.
Malakov is weird. Redline is actually a little tricky to manage if you aren't just throwing the warjack into combat at the first opportunity (or, more relevant: if your opponent doesn't let you just throw the warjack into combat so it ends up hanging around for a few turns). 1 or 2D3 of damage isn't a big deal, but when you start letting that pile up for a couple of turns, it can soften the warjack up enough that a random boostable gun might break something (which was particularly dangerous in this fight).
The workaround is to cast Redline on the warjack every turn after it activates, so you still have it chambered up but aren't accumulating the damage. That worked fine this game, but definitely feels fiddly and it introduces another set of activation orders and positioning conditions you need to keep in mind (move Ruin first, keep it away from things it can scare, then move Malakov into a position to buff Ruin while still being able to Sucker/be in Wind Wall).
It probably wouldn't be so bad in a game where Malakov's warjack wasn't "idling" this long, though this time it at least taught me that cute little workaround for the Redline damage.
It is also worth pointing out that having 10 points of potent melee warjack tied to a squishy 3 point solo is every bit as terrifying as you think it would be. I have a number of "outs" for Malakov getting shot in this list, and I was still sweating him dying the whole time; his low ARM doesn't help, and he is such a juicy target that it is worth taking a risk with something random to see if it pays off.
For as much as the Black Dragon UA has supplanted it (not at all without just cause), there are still some very nice benefits to the normal UA. Having a built-in way to get Pathfinder (only on the charge, but that is usually where you want it the most) that never goes away (go-go Tactics!) helps free up points to be spent elsewhere (since Saxon doesn't feel as necessary). The once-per-game ability is also nice - and probably at its most exploitable with Vlad3 - but that is unfortunately not as useful as it used to be. Not a bad trick to have around though and it does make the unit a good gunline jammer (especially with the Iron Fang Kovnik to give them +2" on the initial movement).
Finally, although I didn't use it myself, I have some thoughts about the Mountain King, post-errata:
I don't think gaining Assault is enough to really get it into list rotation, but it is a definite improvement for the model and it may give the big guy a list or two that it actually fits well into (instead of being a "best of the worst choices" situation).
The practical issue with Assault is that, at base, the Mountain King still has limiters that hold it back. RAT 5 makes it difficult to get a lot of work done without boosting a bunch (which can in turn lead to fury issues). The efficacy of Assaulting with the Mountain King is also going to be constrained by a) the fixed SP10 range of the attack (giving it a very predictable, manageable threat range), and b) the complication that Assaulting forward is likely to put the Mountain King in a very precarious position.
Assault does have some neat implications on the Mountain King, however. At bare minimum, it gives the Mountain King a great way to threaten 'casters: RAT 5 is accurate enough to have a solid shot at hitting most 'casters with a boost, and a boosted POW 16 damage roll is never going to be fun to take on the chin. Or you can use it to try and pick off especially problematic solos (though again, it seems likely that you'll be putting the Mountain King into "please kill me" range to do so).
Assault hits its effective peak when the Mountain King gets: 1) any kind of accuracy boost (making that RAT 5 go further without fury spending), and 2) living models to proc Kill Shot off of. If you can combine those factors (such as with Gunnbjorn, in this fight), you can have turns where the Mountain King does a very respectable amount of work. I don't know that its necessarily 20 points of work (especially considering how relatively easy it is to kill for its cost), but its a far sight better than it used to be.
List Changes/Tweaks:
I am unsure of how I want to change the list, but I am fairly sure that I would like to change the list. Nice, specific feedback, eh?
To narrow it down some: I do not like the two Abomination bubbles, especially with almost everything in the list being prone to freak out around them. It adds another layer of positioning complexity that slows me down and trips me up, which are two things I don't want to have happen when I play this on a clock. And there will come the unfortunate reality of a day when I have to risk the Abomination check(s), fail, and hate life as a result.
Fenris is the one I think I can keep. He is a useful, fun, effective cavalry solo that works pretty well with Vlad3. He is also being perfectly capable of running off and doing his own thing, so if I'm really worried about him causing command checks he can live on a flank and be fine.
Ruin is more problematic. It feels better to keep it near the center of the list to allow it to react more effectively to how the game plays out, and it ends up being necessary anyways because Malakov needs all the protection I can afford him. Tactically, I'm fine with all that, but in practice that Abomination bubble roaming around the middle of my army is a pain in the ass (and will be more so in scenarios that don't give me Effigy of Valor to mitigate it).
I also found myself frustrated at the lack of Pathfinder on battlegroup models. Unfortunately, Vlad3 has zero solutions for that himself, so I either need to suck it up (not ideal) or work in some warjacks with Pathfinder. The latter is more desirable, except for the issue that one of those warjacks is pretty bad in the current game environment (Kodiak), one doesn't exist yet (Grolar), and the biggest options are expensive (either colossal).
So I'm kicking around a number of changes, ranging from dropping Malakov, to rotating in a Grolar or two, to dropping down to one warjack and turning the Malakov + warjack points into more infantry. All have their upsides and downsides, though to be honest the infantry solution may be the one I go with for now until we get at least a date on when the Grolar will finally ascend from myth to reality.
I am unsure of how I want to change the list, but I am fairly sure that I would like to change the list. Nice, specific feedback, eh?
To narrow it down some: I do not like the two Abomination bubbles, especially with almost everything in the list being prone to freak out around them. It adds another layer of positioning complexity that slows me down and trips me up, which are two things I don't want to have happen when I play this on a clock. And there will come the unfortunate reality of a day when I have to risk the Abomination check(s), fail, and hate life as a result.
Fenris is the one I think I can keep. He is a useful, fun, effective cavalry solo that works pretty well with Vlad3. He is also being perfectly capable of running off and doing his own thing, so if I'm really worried about him causing command checks he can live on a flank and be fine.
Ruin is more problematic. It feels better to keep it near the center of the list to allow it to react more effectively to how the game plays out, and it ends up being necessary anyways because Malakov needs all the protection I can afford him. Tactically, I'm fine with all that, but in practice that Abomination bubble roaming around the middle of my army is a pain in the ass (and will be more so in scenarios that don't give me Effigy of Valor to mitigate it).
I also found myself frustrated at the lack of Pathfinder on battlegroup models. Unfortunately, Vlad3 has zero solutions for that himself, so I either need to suck it up (not ideal) or work in some warjacks with Pathfinder. The latter is more desirable, except for the issue that one of those warjacks is pretty bad in the current game environment (Kodiak), one doesn't exist yet (Grolar), and the biggest options are expensive (either colossal).
So I'm kicking around a number of changes, ranging from dropping Malakov, to rotating in a Grolar or two, to dropping down to one warjack and turning the Malakov + warjack points into more infantry. All have their upsides and downsides, though to be honest the infantry solution may be the one I go with for now until we get at least a date on when the Grolar will finally ascend from myth to reality.
Closing Thoughts:
The takeaway from all this is: Vlad3 sure is fun, but hell if I know what kind of list I want to run with him. Things like the Outriders are an easy add - and very effective - but I quickly find myself lost afterwards, and the lists I build feel kind of hodgepodge. Hopefully with future iterations I'll be able to narrow down what I really like (versus what sounds cool in my head). I look forward to figuring all that out.
As always, thanks very much for reading!
The takeaway from all this is: Vlad3 sure is fun, but hell if I know what kind of list I want to run with him. Things like the Outriders are an easy add - and very effective - but I quickly find myself lost afterwards, and the lists I build feel kind of hodgepodge. Hopefully with future iterations I'll be able to narrow down what I really like (versus what sounds cool in my head). I look forward to figuring all that out.
As always, thanks very much for reading!
No comments:
Post a Comment