This is for a few reasons:
- He's not a popular 'caster competitively, so his lists are less "solved" (i.e. widely accepted lists that very good, and not often deviated from) than more prominent alternatives.
- He can, and does, run a larger number of Khador warjacks decently well which is a rarity among Khador warcasters.
- He has a theme list that is actually very good and useful, which is another rarity in Khador (or any of the factions hit with the "early 'Forces of' book" curse.)
- His character warjack - Black Ivan - is damn cool, and I like the synergy they have with each other.
Typically when I sit down to think up a list for a 'caster, my first question is: "Is this 'caster's theme list an option?" For most of the Khador warcasters this answer is an immediate "NO", either because their theme list is not very good (being very kind for some of them,) or because I don't own the models to run that theme list (Butcher2's theme list is very good, if you own enough units of Doom Reavers.)
Harkevich is an interesting case because not only is his theme list good, it may well be better than running him in a normal list. The net benefits of the theme list are: +1 to your starting roll, place wreck markers for each heavy warjack you bring, start with upkeeps in play, and all your warjacks with guns get cheaper.
The balancing act between going with a theme list over a normal list is: is the loss of flexibility worth the bonuses I pick up? Nearly every theme list is hurt by losing access to Merc models (very rare, usually NQ published, theme lists let you take a Merc solo or two in a regular Faction theme list,) and every theme list limits your choices; some tremendously so.
Typically, a theme list will give you one or two good benefits, and the rest is filler. Harkevich's theme list is so enticing because every single tier benefit is decently beneficial, and they combine to enable you to play a list that you would otherwise have a hard time running otherwise: lots of heavy warjacks ("lots" meaning 3+.) All of that is a very reasonable offset to losing out on out-of-theme elements, though I'm still divided as to which style of list is going to prove to be the "best."
Since the theme list is the more restrictive list creation option, that's the current focus of my theory and testing. I figure that I can run through several lists that I like which utilize the theme, and if all of them end up being cut or leaving me wanting I then know that I need to branch out and look at normal lists for better options.
My initial pass at the theme was a very balanced approach:
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Demolisher (8pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (without dismount) (4pts)
My initial pass at the theme was a very balanced approach:
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Demolisher (8pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (without dismount) (4pts)
(The last 4 points vary, but as of late I've liked the idea of a free roaming cav solo.)
Decently large battlegroup with some shooting and melee, Winter Guard Infantry to clear out enemy infantry and/or gum up the opponent, and the requisite Mortars which also bring some random anti-infantry to the table.
It's a decent list, and I've done well with it in the past. I was pretty happy with it way back when Harkevich was released, but then something changed the game of Warmachine dramatically: colossals.
Now instead of having to deal with a few heavies, which you can do via whittling them down or controlling them with power attacks/pushes/pulls/etc, players need to also consider the possibility of having to deal with a big, hard hitting model with decent-to-great guns, that also cannot be moved or made stationary so you need to hack through the big bastards if you want to have a hope of winning via scenario.
Decently large battlegroup with some shooting and melee, Winter Guard Infantry to clear out enemy infantry and/or gum up the opponent, and the requisite Mortars which also bring some random anti-infantry to the table.
It's a decent list, and I've done well with it in the past. I was pretty happy with it way back when Harkevich was released, but then something changed the game of Warmachine dramatically: colossals.
Now instead of having to deal with a few heavies, which you can do via whittling them down or controlling them with power attacks/pushes/pulls/etc, players need to also consider the possibility of having to deal with a big, hard hitting model with decent-to-great guns, that also cannot be moved or made stationary so you need to hack through the big bastards if you want to have a hope of winning via scenario.
Obviously, you need to have a plan for what you'll do against a colossal, because while some may not be too popular (and gargantuans were pretty much DOA,) odds are high you'll face one at some point with your list. I had serious concerns that this version of my list had enough punch to get through a colossal and still make a game of it, and it gets even worse if the opposing list has a heavy or two to go along with that colossal (not terribly common, but when it shows up its scary.)
My next thought was to counter heavy metal with heavy metal, so I tossed out the idea of balance in favor of really skewing the "heavy armor" factor the theme list brings to the table. There are two iterations on this idea. The first is simply a ton of warjacks:
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Demolisher (8pts)
* Demolisher (8pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (with dismount) (5pts)
This list attempts to overload the ability for most lists to be able to deal with that many warjacks, and set up a set of trades that ultimately results in Harkevich's battlegroup coming out on top and either finishing off the enemy 'caster, or winning via scenario (probably more likely.)
While the second adds in Conquest to give the list more punch, and even more of that "armor bully" quality:
Kommander Harkevich, the Iron Wolf (*5pts)
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Conquest (18pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (without dismount) (4pts)
Both lists attempt to do the same thing: overwhelm the other player's list with lots of armor, boxes, and templates. Having discussed both lists with my gaming buddies, I think the second list is overall stronger: while Conquest reduces the footprint of the list, he brings some sorely needed hitting power to the table. Plus, he can leverage his guns more actively than the Demolishers can (who either need to open up to do so, or rely on Broadsides shenanigans.)
I think the hardest thing to do with either list is set up the trades in the right order based on what I'm fighting, and make sure to stick to the plan throughout. One of the oddball dangers of having guns is that it's easy to get distracted by random opportunities to shoot at stuff. If the targets are sufficiently high priority, this can be a good idea, but at the same time Khador warjacks have a hard time with accuracy (I'm continuously amazed at how often RAT 4 can let a person down) so sometimes it's better to stay the course and continue pressing melee advantages.
Setting up the trades is also going to be tricky for me. Khador most often solves problems by tossing infantry at the problem, and units are way more forgiving in terms of trading models. In your average 10 model unit (12 with a UA, but focusing on the core 10 for simplicity) you can usually arrange your unit in waves so that the trades happen at a fairly natural and obvious progression. Also, infantry is binary: they're either dead or not, so its usually very easy to evaluate how a combat will work out.
Warjacks are harder to evaluate. Assuming a situation where the warjacks aren't likely to one-round each other (a common scenario, though the goal is to one-round targets whenever possible,) it all comes down to the dice: if I can put my heavy out there and it takes "average" damage and, most importantly, that damage goes around the cortex, I can reprise with that warjack and start a very legitimate trade scenario.
If, however, the dice spike and/or the damage goes right into columns four and five (eating the cortex,) then that warjack isn't going to be able to contribute much to the counter-offensive, so I need to bring another warjack into the fight. Now, if I had more Mechaniks in either list, I could try to do a warjack rotation (send one in, pull one back and fix it,) but with just one minimum unit I don't think that's likely to work out well.
All of that is compounded by the presence of any kind of "tarpit" infantry, let alone a legit infantry threat. Both lists have template guns to throw around, but those guns are unlikely to chew through threatening or jamming infantry fast enough, since those units are typified by stats/abilities that help them get into position to punch things or get punched.
For those reasons, I feel like the optimal set up for Harkevich's theme list has to include some kind of infantry somewhere. Winter Guard Infantry are the most obvious inclusion, and they've served me very well in the past. While a lot of Khador lists have (and still do) use the WGI as a backbone unit, I really like them in Harkevich's theme list precisely because they aren't the backbone of the list. I only need them to live long enough to clear some models out, and probably get in the way of things a little. So they feel much easier to use than in a list where they're expected to survive and do work.
Winter Guard Rifle Corps are another option for clearing off chaff, and they bring some very nice, accurate, long ranged guns to the table. They also bring a Suppressing Fire template to the table which is a big deal against all but the heartiest single wound infantry. However, I don't particularly like the WGRC in this theme list because the warjacks tend to vanguard, so any threats/speedbumps they run into are often in combat with them. The sprays offered by the WGI UA make it way, way easier to keep your warjacks moving where you want to, and they also get around irritants like Stealth or Concealment/Cover.
I've also seriously (god help me) considered Man-o-War Demolition Corps in lieu of a fourth warjack. They bring some high power attacks to the table that don't eat into Harkevich's focus pile, they're kinda-sorta-durable (more durable than single wound infantry, at least,) and they can slot in naturally behind the warjacks as they move up to counter-charge.
However, the one time I've tried the Demo Corps, they were a pain to use. Here was the list:
* Black Ivan (9pts)
* Demolisher (8pts)
* Spriggan (9pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
It was a fight against Circle, which isn't a match up I love for Harkevich thanks to MAT 6 sucking hard against DEF 14 warpwolves.
The biggest issue I ran into was that the list was too damn voluminous, and none of the infantry has Pathfinder. That becomes a big issue when you put down wreck markers for the theme list benefit. You end up with a situation where you can either place them in aggressive positions to cover your advance, but your infantry get jammed up, or you can put them in easy to navigate spots, but you're pretty strongly telegraphing where your battlegroup is going to go (not that it usually isn't obvious, but still.)
On top of that, the Demo Corps ran into the same issues that they usually do: they're pretty easy to pick off with decently strong ranged attacks (they ended up Prey'd by Bloodtrackers, which terrified them well into the back line,) and their slow speed makes it hard to re-position them or project threat. They're a good second line, but actually getting that to line up is tricky.
If Demo Corps ever get a UA, solo, or whatever that makes them more relevant as offensive choices, I'd be willing to reconsider them in the theme, but as-is they feel worse than bringing another warjack (or super-sizing up to Conquest.)
All of this should illustrate the point/problem: I have way too many ideas about Harkevich lists, and not enough table time to try them out. My old list is at least semi-proven, but everything else is based on theory, experiences with other 'casters in those match ups, or just good 'ol fashioned hope. No matter how many games I get in with Harkevich, I feel like I need to play more with him to get a handle on a list I really, really like. I think it's going to come down to a combination of the right list build, and enough practice with that list build to where I really feel comfortable with everything it brings to the table.
The good news is: I'll be playing a game this week, so I get to try out one of my million lists. It's a really good challenge too; my buddy cooked up this Feora2 list:
* Judicator (18pts)
* Sanctifier (9pts)
* Templar (8pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Temple Flameguard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard (2pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
The Covenant of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal Mechanik (1pts)
Vassal Mechanik (1pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
That list is like the ideal version of a Harkevich list, but of course in Menoth where the warjacks hum. I'm very interested to see how one of my lists works out against it. I'll probably be trying one of my "lots of warjacks" variants against it. If the theory doesn't work out against a list like this, I'm dropping the idea and either going back to my original theme list set up, or I'm going to finally branch out into non-theme lists (yes I have a few all ready, why do you ask?)
No comments:
Post a Comment