A friend of mine and I managed to meet up for a practice game last week. He was looking to try out one of his Skorne lists for an upcoming tournament, and I'm trying to get more practice with Butcher3 (and more practice against Skorne in general).
Join me after the break for the break for the tale of a titan herd, the man who loved it, and the man who hated it (and everything else.)
Lists:
Join me after the break for the break for the tale of a titan herd, the man who loved it, and the man who hated it (and everything else.)
Lists:
My List:
Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed (*4pts)* Berserker (6pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Greylord Ternion (Leader and 2 Grunts) (4pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Kayazy Assassins (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Kayazy Assassin Underboss (2pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Fenris (5pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Madelyn Corbeau, Ordic Courtesan (2pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (with dismount) (5pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)
This is another iteration of Butcher3, as I try to find something I'm comfortable with. I'm working on dropping the Nyss so they can find their way into another list (since I'm never going to drop Butcher3 against Bradigus if I can help it). I also think that having more of a melee focus will help me "wave" up the army properly; the Nyss usually ended up hanging back, which helped to lure me into committing Butcher too early.
I opted to throw two dragoons in the list to add some fast solos that can flank, supplement charges, or tie up pesky ranged elements. It also gives the list a fast element that can initiate the melee trade game which I appreciate in a list where Butcher is the only thing without a static threat range (the Berserker doesn't count.)
* Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
* Titan Cannoneer (8pts)
* Titan Gladiator (7pts)
* Titan Gladiator (7pts)
* Titan Sentry (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
My Friend's List:
Chain Gang - T1
Dominar Rasheth (*5pts)* Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
* Titan Cannoneer (8pts)
* Titan Gladiator (7pts)
* Titan Gladiator (7pts)
* Titan Sentry (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
My friend has been working on Skorne lists recently, and he's done a pretty great job of chronicling his thoughts, so I'll just let his posts speak for themselves. My contribution to the discussion: damn is that a lot of titans.
Scenario: SR2015 Close Quarters
Deployment:
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| Deployment and Round 1 |
Round 1:
Standard round of running/charging/trampling to get up the table. Of note: Rasheth gets Carnivore onto the Sentry, and the BD IFP use Iron Zeal before running up.
Round 2:
 |
| Start of Round 2 |
Rasheth upkeeps Carnivore. Most of this turn is more running and trampling into position.
Rasheth uses one of the Paingivers to channel Blood Mark onto Butcher, then Rasheth pops his feat defensively. The Cannoneer blows up one of the IFP.
Butcher Turn 2:
Butcher keeps all of his Focus. Butcher casts Silence of Death on the IFP, who then charge both Bronzebacks. Between the IFP, Eiryss2, the IFK, some Kayazy and the Drakun, both Bronzebacks end the turn with crippled Spirits and Grievous Wounds. The Berserker also tried to help out, but it missed all of it's attacks. Two of the IFP charged the Agonizer and the Cannoneer, to no effect.
The Widowmakers pick off two off the Paingivers, while Fenris runs up the flank.
CPs: Fun fact! Both of us unknowingly Killboxed ourselves this round (and didn't even realize it until after the game.) Remember scenario rules kids!
Butcher 2 - Rasheth 2
Round 3:
Rasheth Turn 3:
Rasheth upkeeps both Blood Mark and Carnivore. He starts off the turn by shuffling away from Fenris and launching a Breath of Corruption (through a Paingiver) at one of the IFP. The spell connects, killing 3 IFP and putting a cloud between Butcher and the Bronzeback.
On the left flank, the titans are able to clear out many of the IFP via Bronzeback attacks, a Cannoneer Trample and follow up attacks, and a Paingiver whipping.
The right flank goes about the same, with the Sentry, Bronzeback, and Gladiator combining to kill the Drakun (both forms), scrap the Berserker, and kill the nearby IFP.
In the back, the Agonizer runs to interpose itself between Fenris and Rasheth.
CPs: Butcher 2 - Rasheth 2
Butcher Turn 3:
During the Maintenance Phase, Madelyn uses Intrigue to move the IFP Officer closer to the Bronzeback. Butcher upkeeps Silence of Death.
Saxon Orrik give the Assassins Pathfinder, and they charge into the Bronzeback, Gladiator, and Cannoneer, doing some damage to each.
Butcher then activates and gives the run/charge order. He then charges one of his argus that ran into the cloud. Before resolving the charge attack, Butcher pulls the Bronzeback and the Cannoneer into melee with Impending Doom, casts Flashing Blade three times (killing the Cannoneer) then pops his feat to refill his Focus. That allows him to cast one final Flashing Blade (killing the Bronzeback) and Energizer away from his argus (to avoid having to kill it with the charge attack, and stay away from the Gladiator).
The Widowmakers and Eiryss2 continue to pick off nearby Paingivers, while Fenris charges the Agonizer and kills it. The two remaining IFP that can make attacks charge, one into a Paingiver (misses) and the Officer into the Bronzeback (hits and kills). The IFK charges the same Paingiver, and this time connects. Ternion advance and cloud up Butcher and his dogs.
CPs: Butcher 2 - Rasheth 2
 |
| Start of Round 3 |
Rasheth upkeeps both Blood Mark and Carnivore. He starts off the turn by shuffling away from Fenris and launching a Breath of Corruption (through a Paingiver) at one of the IFP. The spell connects, killing 3 IFP and putting a cloud between Butcher and the Bronzeback.
On the left flank, the titans are able to clear out many of the IFP via Bronzeback attacks, a Cannoneer Trample and follow up attacks, and a Paingiver whipping.
The right flank goes about the same, with the Sentry, Bronzeback, and Gladiator combining to kill the Drakun (both forms), scrap the Berserker, and kill the nearby IFP.
In the back, the Agonizer runs to interpose itself between Fenris and Rasheth.
CPs: Butcher 2 - Rasheth 2
Butcher Turn 3:
During the Maintenance Phase, Madelyn uses Intrigue to move the IFP Officer closer to the Bronzeback. Butcher upkeeps Silence of Death.
Saxon Orrik give the Assassins Pathfinder, and they charge into the Bronzeback, Gladiator, and Cannoneer, doing some damage to each.
Butcher then activates and gives the run/charge order. He then charges one of his argus that ran into the cloud. Before resolving the charge attack, Butcher pulls the Bronzeback and the Cannoneer into melee with Impending Doom, casts Flashing Blade three times (killing the Cannoneer) then pops his feat to refill his Focus. That allows him to cast one final Flashing Blade (killing the Bronzeback) and Energizer away from his argus (to avoid having to kill it with the charge attack, and stay away from the Gladiator).
The Widowmakers and Eiryss2 continue to pick off nearby Paingivers, while Fenris charges the Agonizer and kills it. The two remaining IFP that can make attacks charge, one into a Paingiver (misses) and the Officer into the Bronzeback (hits and kills). The IFK charges the same Paingiver, and this time connects. Ternion advance and cloud up Butcher and his dogs.
CPs: Butcher 2 - Rasheth 2
Round 4:
 |
| Start of Round 4 |
Rasheth upkeeps Blood Mark and Carnivore.
Rasheth advances, heals the spirit on the Gladiator, and throws a Breath of Corruption at the Assassin standing near Madelyn, but it scatters just wide and only kills one Assassin. The remaining Paingiver advances and attempts to whip the nearby IFP, but misses.
The Gladiator tramples over the models in front of it, taking a free strike from one of the Assassins which re-breaks it's spirit. The resulting attacks kill one Assassin. The Sentry does the same thing with the models in front of it, having more success with Carnivore and racking up two more dead Assassins.
The rear Gladiator tramples over to Fenris and buys an additional attack, but misses.
Butcher Turn 4:
Butcher keeps all of his Focus. He starts off the turn by giving the run/charge order, running the argus, and charging one of them in the rear. After finishing the charge move he checks distance to Rasheth, who is within 5". Butcher then casts Silence of Death on himself, Impending Doom to pull in Rasheth (and the nearby Paingiver), and kills Rasheth with two Flashing Blades.
Result: Butcher wins via assassination!
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| End of game state |
Post-Game Thoughts:
This was a very fun game, and I give my friend props for playing it out. I rolled up the scenario before he showed up so we could get a scenario setup and be ready to go (playing in a game store = stricter time limits) and I even re-rolled Close Quarters! But it was apparently Rasheth's day to fight over flags.
I think this is a tricky match up, probably moreso for Rasheth. The titans are super scary, but they're also all Rasheth has to get work done, so with someone like Butcher3 if you can play it carefully until mid-late game there probably won't be much left that can stop him. Fenris being a specifically great model to have run at Rasheth (the only Skorne warlock without some other means to try and kill him) didn't help things either.
Both of us were interested in seeing how this match up played out, and I think we both learned a lot from the game. I think this is a very winnable game for Rasheth, but more importantly I think my Butcher3 list kind of melts to Fist, so Rasheth shouldn't ever really have to deal with something like this.
I think this is a tricky match up, probably moreso for Rasheth. The titans are super scary, but they're also all Rasheth has to get work done, so with someone like Butcher3 if you can play it carefully until mid-late game there probably won't be much left that can stop him. Fenris being a specifically great model to have run at Rasheth (the only Skorne warlock without some other means to try and kill him) didn't help things either.
Both of us were interested in seeing how this match up played out, and I think we both learned a lot from the game. I think this is a very winnable game for Rasheth, but more importantly I think my Butcher3 list kind of melts to Fist, so Rasheth shouldn't ever really have to deal with something like this.
Things That Went Well:
The last time I played Close Quarters with Butcher3 against Skorne, I set him up to hold my friendly flag and score defensively. I walked away from that game thinking that was a mistake: Butcher3's list doesn't attrition especially well (particularly against some of Skorne's anti-infantry measures) so winning via slow grind isn't likely. I thought it may be better to take a more aggressive stance, with the hope that being more aggressive with Butcher3 would be more rewarding (force more commitment, faster CP gains).
I think that worked out well here. It was going to be easy enough for me to keep feeding models near my own flag to keep Rasheth from scoring over there, and fighting over near the opposing flag made Butcher's commitment much more valuable. Even if I hadn't assassinated Rasheth, I would have been in a great position to dominate his flag consecutively and score a quick CP win. Especially considering we, um, both forgot about Killbox and made it a 3 CP game.
I was very lucky to break the spirits of both Bronzebacks under Rasheth's feat. The Bronzeback on the left flank wasn't super-lucky, due to Precision Strike on the IFP, but the Bronzeback on the right was almost all through Drakun damage (which I happened to roll branch 5 for) and the one IFP that charged him. Eiryss2 had to come up with a clutch aimed Snipe shot on the left Bronzeback to finish off the Spirit, and if I was smarter I would have done 4 damage in the same way to the Bronzeback on the right to make it less of a nailbiter.
I feel like, in a very general sense (more on the specifics in a minute) Butcher3 was in the right spots all game. I never felt like he was seriously out of position to be able to do what I needed him to. Moreover, I've been trying to resolve myself to hold Butcher back until at least turn 3 unless something absolutely ridiculous presents itself (sending him in any earlier than that always either gets him killed, or screws me later). I was seriously tempted to try to use him to kill the Bronzeback on turn 2, and I'm glad I didn't.
I think that worked out well here. It was going to be easy enough for me to keep feeding models near my own flag to keep Rasheth from scoring over there, and fighting over near the opposing flag made Butcher's commitment much more valuable. Even if I hadn't assassinated Rasheth, I would have been in a great position to dominate his flag consecutively and score a quick CP win. Especially considering we, um, both forgot about Killbox and made it a 3 CP game.
I was very lucky to break the spirits of both Bronzebacks under Rasheth's feat. The Bronzeback on the left flank wasn't super-lucky, due to Precision Strike on the IFP, but the Bronzeback on the right was almost all through Drakun damage (which I happened to roll branch 5 for) and the one IFP that charged him. Eiryss2 had to come up with a clutch aimed Snipe shot on the left Bronzeback to finish off the Spirit, and if I was smarter I would have done 4 damage in the same way to the Bronzeback on the right to make it less of a nailbiter.
I feel like, in a very general sense (more on the specifics in a minute) Butcher3 was in the right spots all game. I never felt like he was seriously out of position to be able to do what I needed him to. Moreover, I've been trying to resolve myself to hold Butcher back until at least turn 3 unless something absolutely ridiculous presents itself (sending him in any earlier than that always either gets him killed, or screws me later). I was seriously tempted to try to use him to kill the Bronzeback on turn 2, and I'm glad I didn't.
Things That Did Not Go Well:
I either seriously need to work on my ability to position models well on the fly, or play a lot more Irusk2 so it matters a whole helluva lot less. My positioning with a lot of models this game was not optimal, and I got lucky that it never ended up biting me in the ass. But it easily could next time, so I need to work on that. More on that in the next, more appropriate section.
Key Mistakes/Things To Do Differently:
I seriously need to stop putting Butcher into terrain. Unless its something that gives Cover, the Ternion clouds are already going to give him all the Concealment he'll ever need. Difficult terrain ends up cutting into Intrigue movements and possible Energizer movements, so I really need to get into the habit of not putting him so far into terrain. If I'm going to do it, it just need to be the slightest bit of base necessary to get the bonus.
I also need to be much, much more mindful of where I'm putting Madelyn and Saxon. Madelyn was totally out of position during one turn (Butcher was outside of her CMD,) and Saxon was always skirting the edge of being able to walk over and give Pathfinder to one of the arguses. Which is fine if I just want to give the unit Pathfinder, but terrible if I'm using him for why I put him in the list: redundant Pathfinder in case the arguses are killed. This issue can also be mitigated by not shoving Butcher into terrain like an idiot, and not wheeling him all the way out on a flank when I don't need to (which stupidly cost me CPs and tripped him up on underbrush).
One thing that got me started off on the wrong foot was my turn 1 movement with the battlegroup: I Energizer'd up, then ran/charged, in order to keep the Berserker in Butcher's control area so it could get the extra first turn movement. However, I was so crossed up while doing this that I accidentally put the dog I was going to charge too close, so charging it would have killed it. I ended up having to charge a Paingiver to avoid that, which pulled me off course. I easily could and should have done all that differently, which would have kept Butcher out of terrain and away from the Killbox.
I also need to work on my unit positioning. I thought to myself "I need to wave up the IFP to threaten anything Rasheth runs/charges/tramples up" but then I still put them too close together to really counter-charge. Losing out on two charge attacks made it that much harder to break the spirit of the left Bronzeback, and if it would have been functional come turn 3 the game may have immediately gone very badly for me. There's a lot of latitude with unit formation - especially on a unit like IFP that have CMD 10 on the Officer - and a big part of the value of units is being able to make use of it. I need to continue to try to improve that.
I also need to be much, much more mindful of where I'm putting Madelyn and Saxon. Madelyn was totally out of position during one turn (Butcher was outside of her CMD,) and Saxon was always skirting the edge of being able to walk over and give Pathfinder to one of the arguses. Which is fine if I just want to give the unit Pathfinder, but terrible if I'm using him for why I put him in the list: redundant Pathfinder in case the arguses are killed. This issue can also be mitigated by not shoving Butcher into terrain like an idiot, and not wheeling him all the way out on a flank when I don't need to (which stupidly cost me CPs and tripped him up on underbrush).
One thing that got me started off on the wrong foot was my turn 1 movement with the battlegroup: I Energizer'd up, then ran/charged, in order to keep the Berserker in Butcher's control area so it could get the extra first turn movement. However, I was so crossed up while doing this that I accidentally put the dog I was going to charge too close, so charging it would have killed it. I ended up having to charge a Paingiver to avoid that, which pulled me off course. I easily could and should have done all that differently, which would have kept Butcher out of terrain and away from the Killbox.
I also need to work on my unit positioning. I thought to myself "I need to wave up the IFP to threaten anything Rasheth runs/charges/tramples up" but then I still put them too close together to really counter-charge. Losing out on two charge attacks made it that much harder to break the spirit of the left Bronzeback, and if it would have been functional come turn 3 the game may have immediately gone very badly for me. There's a lot of latitude with unit formation - especially on a unit like IFP that have CMD 10 on the Officer - and a big part of the value of units is being able to make use of it. I need to continue to try to improve that.
Noteworthy Model Thoughts:
I really like the two dragoons. They're decently tough models (not against anything high POW, but they'll do alright against normal anti-infantry stuff) that are fast enough to get the first hit most of the time, or run and jam up things I don't want to be dealing with.
This was one of the first times I've been able to pull off the Grevious Wounds/Precision Strike combo to any effect, and it sure was nice. Its a combination that makes the BD IFP the more compelling UA choice with Butcher3 (as if they needed more reasons) and when you can take advantage of it, it can be really nice.
This was one of the first times I've been able to pull off the Grevious Wounds/Precision Strike combo to any effect, and it sure was nice. Its a combination that makes the BD IFP the more compelling UA choice with Butcher3 (as if they needed more reasons) and when you can take advantage of it, it can be really nice.
List Changes/Tweaks:
I'm okay with the Kayazy. I think practically a second unit of IFP would be as good or better, but I don't own a second unit and am fighting like made to dodge buying it as long as possible. I feel like the minute I buy a second unit of IFP is the same day/week that some super sweet looking new Iron Fang unit gets posted on the PP main page. Which is frustrating, because having access to a second Reach melee unit (without goofy caveats like Doom Reavers) would be super swell.
The Berserker sucks. But it sucks on the cheap, and it runs/charges for free, so I'm alright with that. I am curious to see what the Mad Dog warjack's full rules look like because if it ends up comparable but less terrible I'll be on board. And then there's Ruin, but I have a feeling that I'd need to free up at least four or so points to fit him in whenever he comes out and I don't feel like I have that much "float" in this list. Though I'm certainly going to try to figure it out.
The Berserker sucks. But it sucks on the cheap, and it runs/charges for free, so I'm alright with that. I am curious to see what the Mad Dog warjack's full rules look like because if it ends up comparable but less terrible I'll be on board. And then there's Ruin, but I have a feeling that I'd need to free up at least four or so points to fit him in whenever he comes out and I don't feel like I have that much "float" in this list. Though I'm certainly going to try to figure it out.
Closing Thoughts:
I like this Butcher3 list. The cav solos added just what I want to the list; if Uhlans weren't so damn finicky and narrow in use I'd love to put them in as the obvious first wave. Unfortunately, they suck at that job, so Fenris and the Drakun have to pick up the slack. I could also see the value in adding Alexia2 just as a cav solo, especially since she can throw around Hellfires and drop out Thralls.
I'm getting more comfortable with the overall game rhythm of Butcher3 but I still have a long way to go before I feel confident in my movement and placement with his list. I'm sure part of that is the fact that I'm changing Butcher3's list every time, so I'm hoping to stick with this iteration for awhile. Get enough games in to where the general placement of models and movements become rote and I can focus on specifics.
Hopefully I'll be getting some more games in with Butcher3 during the coming weeks. Each week is a bit of a toss up between Warmachine, Malifaux, and now Infinity, so it boils down to what I end up playing. Whenever I do get more Butcher3 games in, I'll be back to report on how it went, and share more pics and thoughts.
Until then, thanks very much for reading!
I like this Butcher3 list. The cav solos added just what I want to the list; if Uhlans weren't so damn finicky and narrow in use I'd love to put them in as the obvious first wave. Unfortunately, they suck at that job, so Fenris and the Drakun have to pick up the slack. I could also see the value in adding Alexia2 just as a cav solo, especially since she can throw around Hellfires and drop out Thralls.
I'm getting more comfortable with the overall game rhythm of Butcher3 but I still have a long way to go before I feel confident in my movement and placement with his list. I'm sure part of that is the fact that I'm changing Butcher3's list every time, so I'm hoping to stick with this iteration for awhile. Get enough games in to where the general placement of models and movements become rote and I can focus on specifics.
Hopefully I'll be getting some more games in with Butcher3 during the coming weeks. Each week is a bit of a toss up between Warmachine, Malifaux, and now Infinity, so it boils down to what I end up playing. Whenever I do get more Butcher3 games in, I'll be back to report on how it went, and share more pics and thoughts.
Until then, thanks very much for reading!
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