Lists:
My List:
Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed (*4pts)* Ruin (10pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Greylord Ternion (Leader and 2 Grunts) (4pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Kayazy Assassins (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Kayazy Assassin Underboss (2pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Fenris (5pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (with dismount) (5pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)
This is the same list I've been running in my recent tournament goings, with one change: I freed up 4 points (by dropping Madelyn and the Iron Fang Kovnik) to swap out the Berserker for Ruin. I've been seriously debating whether that would be a worthwhile switch, so I was interested in trying it out.
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Tiberion (11pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
* Tyrant Vorkesh (3pts)
Cataphract Incindiarii (Leader and 3 Grunts) (6pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
My Friend's List:
Void Seer Mordikaar (*5pts)* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Tiberion (11pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
* Tyrant Vorkesh (3pts)
Cataphract Incindiarii (Leader and 3 Grunts) (6pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
This is a list my friend has been working on as a possible compliment to Fist. It's well rounded enough to still have game against a variety of lists, but it's also crucially strong against things like Cryx, where you may not want to drop Fist. He's been trying to get as much experience as possible with it, so we opted to throw these two lists against each other.
Scenario: SR2015 Outflank
Deployment:
Butcher won the roll off and opted for first turn.
Proxy note: The noble-but-now-useless Kodiak is a proxy for Ruin.
Terrain notes: the flocked areas are forests (currently denoted by single trees, which in fine wargaming fashion will soon be pushed to the side and never returned). We treated the building as totally impassible and LOS blocking across it's footprint.
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| Deployment |
Proxy note: The noble-but-now-useless Kodiak is a proxy for Ruin.
Terrain notes: the flocked areas are forests (currently denoted by single trees, which in fine wargaming fashion will soon be pushed to the side and never returned). We treated the building as totally impassible and LOS blocking across it's footprint.
Round 1:
Butcher's army does a lot of running/charging to get up the table.
Mordikaar gets Hollow out on the Nihilators along with Ghost Walk. Mordikaar also pops his feat, catching everything in his army. A sniped shot from the Cyclops Raider puts 7 damage onto the Drakun. The Shaman tries to finish the job of dismounting it but comes up just short on distance.
Mordikaar gets Hollow out on the Nihilators along with Ghost Walk. Mordikaar also pops his feat, catching everything in his army. A sniped shot from the Cyclops Raider puts 7 damage onto the Drakun. The Shaman tries to finish the job of dismounting it but comes up just short on distance.
Round 2:
Butcher Turn 2:
Butcher keeps all of his Focus.
With Mordikaar's feat up, most of Butcher's army runs/advances into positions for the following turn. Noteworthy exceptions include: The Ternion put Blizzard clouds on Butcher and his dogs as they move into both zones. The Black Dragon Iron Fang Pikemen (BD IFP) use Iron Zeal before running up.
The Drakun charges the Incindiarii, coming up well short. Fenris successfully charges into the Nihilators, but misses his charge attack and is pushed out of melee.
Mordikaar Turn 2:
Mordikaar upkeeps Hollow and starts out the turn by putting Far Strike on the Raider and Ghost Walk on the Nihilators.
The Nihilators then charge into the clump of BD IFP, one of Butcher's argus, and Fenris. Several BD IFP are chopped up, Fenris takes 4 damage, and the argus takes 1 damage.
The Incindiarii advance around the Drakun to get shots on Butcher and the Assassins, which ends up triggering Counter Charge from the Drakun. The Drakun's charge and impact attacks end up killing two of the Incindiarii. The remaining two shoot at Butcher but miss, drift onto a Assassins, and kill him instead.
Tiberon moves over and unhorses the Drakun but isn't able to follow up due to dismounting positioning, then uses Bump on himself. The Shaman moves over and spears the dismounted Drakun to death. The Raider shoots at Butcher, but fails to crack armor.
The Cetrati continue to advance in Shield Wall, stabbing nearby BD IFP as they go, while the Agonizer shuffles up behind them. The Paingivers manage Fury and one toes into the zone.
CPs: Butcher 0 - Mordikaar 0
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| Start of Round 2 |
Butcher keeps all of his Focus.
With Mordikaar's feat up, most of Butcher's army runs/advances into positions for the following turn. Noteworthy exceptions include: The Ternion put Blizzard clouds on Butcher and his dogs as they move into both zones. The Black Dragon Iron Fang Pikemen (BD IFP) use Iron Zeal before running up.
The Drakun charges the Incindiarii, coming up well short. Fenris successfully charges into the Nihilators, but misses his charge attack and is pushed out of melee.
Mordikaar Turn 2:
Mordikaar upkeeps Hollow and starts out the turn by putting Far Strike on the Raider and Ghost Walk on the Nihilators.
The Nihilators then charge into the clump of BD IFP, one of Butcher's argus, and Fenris. Several BD IFP are chopped up, Fenris takes 4 damage, and the argus takes 1 damage.
The Incindiarii advance around the Drakun to get shots on Butcher and the Assassins, which ends up triggering Counter Charge from the Drakun. The Drakun's charge and impact attacks end up killing two of the Incindiarii. The remaining two shoot at Butcher but miss, drift onto a Assassins, and kill him instead.
Tiberon moves over and unhorses the Drakun but isn't able to follow up due to dismounting positioning, then uses Bump on himself. The Shaman moves over and spears the dismounted Drakun to death. The Raider shoots at Butcher, but fails to crack armor.
The Cetrati continue to advance in Shield Wall, stabbing nearby BD IFP as they go, while the Agonizer shuffles up behind them. The Paingivers manage Fury and one toes into the zone.
CPs: Butcher 0 - Mordikaar 0
Round 3:
Butcher Turn 3:
Butcher keeps all of his Focus.
Eiryss shoots one of the Nihilators, knocking off Hollow and killing it. The Widowmakers, BD IFP, and Fenris throw attacks into the Nihilators as well, thinning them out (and allowing Fenris to retreat via ride by attack). The Ternion also chip in a Frostbite to thinning out the Nihilators while putting clouds on Butcher and one of his argus.
Saxon gives the Assassins Pathfinder, who then charge into the Shaman, killing it with three charge attacks). The remaining Assassins run into interfering positions.
Ruin charges into the Cetrati, killing one and doing 6 damage to another between the charge attack and a soul purchased attack.
Butcher continues to camp and moves a little further into the zone, with the War Dog moving up with him.
Mordikaar Turn 3:
Mordikaar starts off the turn by reviving a Cetrati and an Incindiarii.
The Nihilators continue to pile attacks into the BD IFP, while the Cetrati continue to Shield Wall with the newly revived model moving up into melee with the War Dog. The ranging Cetrati kills the War Dog, while the rest of the unit piles damage onto Ruin, breaking it's cortex and right arm.
The Incindiarii shuffle into firing positions then kill several Assassins and setting another Assassin, Butcher, and a nearby Ternion on fire. The Extoller gives Eyeless Sight to the Raider, which then advances, casts Far Strike on itself, and shoots the Underboss, killing it.
Tiberion moves into position to threaten Butcher (while being blocked by the Cetrati) and the Paingivers run to get more models into the zone.
CPs: Butcher 0 - Mordikaar 0
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| Start of Round 3 |
Butcher keeps all of his Focus.
Eiryss shoots one of the Nihilators, knocking off Hollow and killing it. The Widowmakers, BD IFP, and Fenris throw attacks into the Nihilators as well, thinning them out (and allowing Fenris to retreat via ride by attack). The Ternion also chip in a Frostbite to thinning out the Nihilators while putting clouds on Butcher and one of his argus.
Saxon gives the Assassins Pathfinder, who then charge into the Shaman, killing it with three charge attacks). The remaining Assassins run into interfering positions.
Ruin charges into the Cetrati, killing one and doing 6 damage to another between the charge attack and a soul purchased attack.
Butcher continues to camp and moves a little further into the zone, with the War Dog moving up with him.
Mordikaar Turn 3:
Mordikaar starts off the turn by reviving a Cetrati and an Incindiarii.
The Nihilators continue to pile attacks into the BD IFP, while the Cetrati continue to Shield Wall with the newly revived model moving up into melee with the War Dog. The ranging Cetrati kills the War Dog, while the rest of the unit piles damage onto Ruin, breaking it's cortex and right arm.
The Incindiarii shuffle into firing positions then kill several Assassins and setting another Assassin, Butcher, and a nearby Ternion on fire. The Extoller gives Eyeless Sight to the Raider, which then advances, casts Far Strike on itself, and shoots the Underboss, killing it.
Tiberion moves into position to threaten Butcher (while being blocked by the Cetrati) and the Paingivers run to get more models into the zone.
CPs: Butcher 0 - Mordikaar 0
Round 4:
Butcher Turn 4:
During the Maintenance Phase, all on models that are on fire burn. The Ternion and Assassin die while Butcher takes 2 damage. During the Control Phase, Butcher keeps all of his Focus.
The combined efforts of Eiryss, the Widowmakers, two of the BD IFP, and one of the Ternion clear out the Nihliators. The BD IPF Officer kills the previously revived Cetrati engaging Butcher, while the other Ternion puts a cloud on Butcher.
Saxon attempts to shoot the Incindiarii currently in the zone but misses. The Assassins move into melee with that Incindiarii as well as the other contesting models, and manage to stab to death the Incindiarii and one of the Paingivers.
Butcher casts Energizer for 1" of movement, then charges the remaining Paingiver in the zone, killing it (while the arguses run into the zone).
Ruin manages to punch the previously wounded Cetrati and bring it down to 1 wound remaining. Fenris moves up to the edge of the forest.
End of turn, Butcher scores 2 CP for Dominating the right zone.
CPs: Butcher 2 - Mordikaar 0
Mordikaar Turn 4:
Tiberion starts off by advancing up behind the Cetrati and finishing off Ruin. The newly freed Cetrati advance into both zones under Shield Wall, and stab nearby models to death (including one of Butcher's arguses).
The Soulward advances and boosts a shot at Butcher, but misses. The Incindiarii charge into Butcher and the Assassins. The attack against Butcher fails to break armor and the attack against the Assassin misses.
The Raider shoots down the other one of Butcher's arguses (while toeing into the zone), then the Paingivers help to manage Fury. Mordikaar moves away from Butcher and casts Bump on himself (I think; I can't quite remember how he spent his Fury this turn).
CPs: Butcher 2 - Mordikaar 0
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| Start of Round 4 |
During the Maintenance Phase, all on models that are on fire burn. The Ternion and Assassin die while Butcher takes 2 damage. During the Control Phase, Butcher keeps all of his Focus.
The combined efforts of Eiryss, the Widowmakers, two of the BD IFP, and one of the Ternion clear out the Nihliators. The BD IPF Officer kills the previously revived Cetrati engaging Butcher, while the other Ternion puts a cloud on Butcher.
Saxon attempts to shoot the Incindiarii currently in the zone but misses. The Assassins move into melee with that Incindiarii as well as the other contesting models, and manage to stab to death the Incindiarii and one of the Paingivers.
Butcher casts Energizer for 1" of movement, then charges the remaining Paingiver in the zone, killing it (while the arguses run into the zone).
Ruin manages to punch the previously wounded Cetrati and bring it down to 1 wound remaining. Fenris moves up to the edge of the forest.
End of turn, Butcher scores 2 CP for Dominating the right zone.
CPs: Butcher 2 - Mordikaar 0
Mordikaar Turn 4:
Tiberion starts off by advancing up behind the Cetrati and finishing off Ruin. The newly freed Cetrati advance into both zones under Shield Wall, and stab nearby models to death (including one of Butcher's arguses).
The Soulward advances and boosts a shot at Butcher, but misses. The Incindiarii charge into Butcher and the Assassins. The attack against Butcher fails to break armor and the attack against the Assassin misses.
The Raider shoots down the other one of Butcher's arguses (while toeing into the zone), then the Paingivers help to manage Fury. Mordikaar moves away from Butcher and casts Bump on himself (I think; I can't quite remember how he spent his Fury this turn).
CPs: Butcher 2 - Mordikaar 0
Round 5:
Butcher Turn 5:
During the Maintenance Phase Butcher uses Vengeance moves towards the Raider, taking a free strike from the engaging Incindiarii, which misses. Butcher then kills the other Incindiarii with his Vengeance attack.
A combination of Fenris attacking the Agonzier, Sniper shots, BD IFP charges, and Frostbite sprays into rear arc clear out the models in the left zone.
Assassin attacks combined with Butcher Flashing Blade attacks are enough to clear out the right zone.
End of turn Butcher scores 3 CP; 1 for Controlling the left zone and 2 for Dominating the right zone.
CPs: Butcher 5 - Mordikaar 0
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| Start of Round 5 |
During the Maintenance Phase Butcher uses Vengeance moves towards the Raider, taking a free strike from the engaging Incindiarii, which misses. Butcher then kills the other Incindiarii with his Vengeance attack.
A combination of Fenris attacking the Agonzier, Sniper shots, BD IFP charges, and Frostbite sprays into rear arc clear out the models in the left zone.
Assassin attacks combined with Butcher Flashing Blade attacks are enough to clear out the right zone.
End of turn Butcher scores 3 CP; 1 for Controlling the left zone and 2 for Dominating the right zone.
CPs: Butcher 5 - Mordikaar 0
Result: Butcher wins via scenario!
Post-Game Thoughts:
This game was one helluva slugfest. As evidenced by the pictures, not much survived to the endgame, and the clock (just out of frame in the last picture) ended up with a combined 8 or so minutes on it when all was said and done.
My friend's Mordikaar list grinds like an absolute boss. I got lucky in a few places with some crucial missed Nihilator attacks, and this was (thankfully) the first Skorne list I've played against that couldn't chamber up a really nasty, decent-to-long range threat on Butcher so I was able to push him forward more and use his abilities.
It's worth noting that, although we played this game similar to a tournament game, this isn't a match up either of us would have picked. My friend's other list is Fist, which would play excellently into both my lists (Sorscha2 and Butcher3), and the presence of Fist probably pushes me to drop Sorscha2 instead of Butcher3. We played this game to try out the match up and get some list experience, and in that regard I think it was a very valuable experience for both of us. As well as being a damn fun time!
My friend's Mordikaar list grinds like an absolute boss. I got lucky in a few places with some crucial missed Nihilator attacks, and this was (thankfully) the first Skorne list I've played against that couldn't chamber up a really nasty, decent-to-long range threat on Butcher so I was able to push him forward more and use his abilities.
It's worth noting that, although we played this game similar to a tournament game, this isn't a match up either of us would have picked. My friend's other list is Fist, which would play excellently into both my lists (Sorscha2 and Butcher3), and the presence of Fist probably pushes me to drop Sorscha2 instead of Butcher3. We played this game to try out the match up and get some list experience, and in that regard I think it was a very valuable experience for both of us. As well as being a damn fun time!
Things That Went Well:
I'll get more into this later, but Ruin's ability to project melee threat was remarkably useful. It didn't do a lot once it was stuck in (mostly due to not wanting to feed it Focus and open Butcher up), but just having it on the table helped me establish a solid foothold on the table.
The Widowmakers and Eiryss2 "squad" ended up doing much better than I anticipated. Part of that was me being willing to move them back when the Nihilators started advancing on them; I was really worried they'd end up engaged and neutralized for most of the game (if not outright dead).
Butcher was able to tank and clear the zone like a champ. It's been a little while since I've been able to do that with him and it felt good to be able to use him as a zone bully again. Scenario play is definitely his strongest application. Butcher's assassination is scary, but pretty much off the table after feat turn and can be played around by your opponent (though having it as an option absolutely shapes how they have to play the game).
The Widowmakers and Eiryss2 "squad" ended up doing much better than I anticipated. Part of that was me being willing to move them back when the Nihilators started advancing on them; I was really worried they'd end up engaged and neutralized for most of the game (if not outright dead).
Butcher was able to tank and clear the zone like a champ. It's been a little while since I've been able to do that with him and it felt good to be able to use him as a zone bully again. Scenario play is definitely his strongest application. Butcher's assassination is scary, but pretty much off the table after feat turn and can be played around by your opponent (though having it as an option absolutely shapes how they have to play the game).
Key Mistakes/Things To Do Differently:
I made a huge mistake when I tried to charge the Drakun into the Incindiarii. I even had the zone right there as a convenient way to remind me "hey buddy, you're probably not going to make melee threat range with a charge". I was eager to kill off the Incindiarii and hopefully buy the Assassins some safe passage, but even that was a mistake: I was, at absolute best, going to make distance to one Incindiarii and it would have been trivial for my opponent to just replace him next turn if it meant that much to him. In all cases it would have been best to just jam the Drakun in and try to force some activation consternation.
I also forgot about Ghost Walk's freestrike immunity (as I often do). I was basing some of my earlier movements on the Nihilators being kind of jammed up by BD IFP free strikes; turns out, not so much. Thankfully they managed to survive due to a lucky turn of dice and Iron Zeal, but that could have been a really ugly turn in the long term attrition battle. One of these days I'll actually remember the really good part of Ghost Walk.
Maybe.
Probably not.
One of the nice things about this fight is that Tiberion, in this list, has a fixed, manageable threat. So as long as I keep Butcher 9.1" away from Tiberion, I never have to worry about him getting charged and Tetsubo'd to death. I did a good job of managing that all game, then almost completely threw it away when I had him charge in turn 4 to finish clearing the zone. Even if it would have cost me one more Focus to Energizer back a smidge (before the charge, setting up an angle that was absolutely more than 9" away from Tiberion), that would have been preferable to losing the game due to an over-eager brain fart. Thankfully I ended up more than 9" away - totally by accident - but that was almost a perfect punt when the game was starting to turn my way.
I got very lucky when the three charging Assassins killed the Shaman. Average math puts it within reason (though my damage rolls were high enough to make the third attack almost perfunctory) but I should have kept my mental options more open. I could have Dominated the zone that turn if I had just thrown something else at killing the lone Paingiver contesting the zone; I think a Ternion could have made range to hit it with Frostbite, and Butcher very likely could have thrown a boosted Blunderbuss shot at it. Although spending Focus on Butcher always makes me nervous, it probably would have been worth it in that case to score 2 CP and put the scenario pressure on.
I also forgot about Ghost Walk's freestrike immunity (as I often do). I was basing some of my earlier movements on the Nihilators being kind of jammed up by BD IFP free strikes; turns out, not so much. Thankfully they managed to survive due to a lucky turn of dice and Iron Zeal, but that could have been a really ugly turn in the long term attrition battle. One of these days I'll actually remember the really good part of Ghost Walk.
Maybe.
Probably not.
One of the nice things about this fight is that Tiberion, in this list, has a fixed, manageable threat. So as long as I keep Butcher 9.1" away from Tiberion, I never have to worry about him getting charged and Tetsubo'd to death. I did a good job of managing that all game, then almost completely threw it away when I had him charge in turn 4 to finish clearing the zone. Even if it would have cost me one more Focus to Energizer back a smidge (before the charge, setting up an angle that was absolutely more than 9" away from Tiberion), that would have been preferable to losing the game due to an over-eager brain fart. Thankfully I ended up more than 9" away - totally by accident - but that was almost a perfect punt when the game was starting to turn my way.
I got very lucky when the three charging Assassins killed the Shaman. Average math puts it within reason (though my damage rolls were high enough to make the third attack almost perfunctory) but I should have kept my mental options more open. I could have Dominated the zone that turn if I had just thrown something else at killing the lone Paingiver contesting the zone; I think a Ternion could have made range to hit it with Frostbite, and Butcher very likely could have thrown a boosted Blunderbuss shot at it. Although spending Focus on Butcher always makes me nervous, it probably would have been worth it in that case to score 2 CP and put the scenario pressure on.
Noteworthy Model Thoughts:
One of the main reasons I wanted to try out this list is that I wanted to see how Ruin felt in the context of a Butcher3 infantry heavy list. My biggest concern was that it'd be an expensive model that you can't really protect (aside from a Ternion cloud for a mighty DEF 12), making it essentially a more expensive bullet magnet than the Berserker.
A single game isn't enough data to draw conclusions, but it does give a sense of how something "feels". And I have to say, Ruin felt much better in the list than I anticipated.
First: with it's Affinity, Ruin ends up being as Focus efficient as the Berserker in the early turns (or on any turn that you don't want to give it Focus) while amazingly being able to cover more distance. Ruin's free charge is 1" further than a Berserker's free run, assuming you're just trying to close the distance (which is all you're doing in the early game).
Second: Ruin is going to accomplish much, much more with zero Focus on it than a Berserker could ever dream of. MAT 8 is a tremendous improvement that allows Ruin to raw-dawg it's attack rolls against a lot of models with decent-to-great odds of success. Soul Taker allows Ruin to clear the area around it for free if you're able to get to living models, making it leagues more effective against infantry than a (non-exploding) Berserker ever would be.
Third: Dispel is neat to have. I'm still nowhere near comfortable with making it the only anti-upkeep in the list, but it eliminates some concerns when debating where to send the big guy. For instance, I could have put Silence of Death on Ruin and thrown him into a clump of Nihilators; he'd get rid of Hollow and very likely kill everything in his melee range, all in one go. Which in turn frees up Eiryss2 to either stay safe, or snipe something.
Finally, and most importantly: Ruin's threat range with Butcher3 is bonkers. 14" total with Energizer and including Reach. Ruin can get 12" up the table turn 1 (Boundless Charge + Energizer), so if you go first you can easily have him 19" in on the table. That allows him to strike 33" in on the table (at the furthest extent). If your opponent deployed their full 10" in on the table, that gives them 5" or so of wiggle room to advance where Ruin can't get the first hit on them.
Now, all of that is serious vacuum theorycraft; things will rarely be so straightforward in game (models in the way, terrain, etc). But it does illustrate the point: Ruin can range out very, very far. If Butcher can hang back somewhere safe Ruin can arrive with a full payload of Focus, ready to do some work. Ruin can either act as the initiator of the attrition trade - setting up follow up charges from your infantry - or it can hang back and very comfortably make distance on anything your infantry get to around turn 2-3.
That said, Ruin does have at least two problems in this list:
1) As mentioned, he's a bullet magnet, and a pretty expensive one. I can't afford to put any kind of support in for him - some source of Repair, Shield Guard - and even if I could I don't think it's worth it for just one warjack (plus he'd spook the repair people).
The upside to this is that any guns that are going into Ruin won't be aimed at Butcher. Against some lists you can present a pretty ugly choice of options, especially if they were hoping to soften Butcher up for a kill later: any shots you dump into him aren't slowing down Ruin, and vice versa. It also may be possible to cook up a formation that hides Ruin behind argus centered Blizzard clouds, in Butcher's cloud for the DEF bonus, which may give you a turn of relative safety (or Vengeance) against some lists. But there will also be plenty of times where Ruin will just have to take it on the chin and know that it's buying you valuable board presence while doing so.
2) Ruin is an Abomination. This is more of a problem in my list where I already have an Abomination (Fenris) and I have a non-Fearless unit (Kayazy Assassins). In an objective game I can get around that a bit with Effigy of Valor, but in every scenario without objectives it becomes a careful game of trying to keep at least the Assassins 3.01" away from Ruin (Fenris is a bit easier as he's usually running screaming up a flank). Unfortunately, my best source of a high CMD commander - the Iron Fang Kovnik - ended up being cut to make points, so the Assassins are stuck testing at an iffy CMD 9. I'm sure that will come back to bite me at least once.
A possible change is switching out the Assassins for BD IFP. This isn't really feasible right now, as I'm waiting for the plastic IFP boxes to come out in June before I consider buying a second unit. I'm also becoming a little more enamored with the Assassins the more I use them; they run into meta issues here and there, but they're still damn fine melee infantry. If only the Underboss still granted Fearless like in Mk. 1!
So, the takeaway for me is (perhaps not unsurprisingly): Ruin is worth it, at least in any Butcher list. That Affinity is just so damn good. Ruin jolly well may prove to be "worth it" in any list, but I'm not willing to go quite that far yet.
A single game isn't enough data to draw conclusions, but it does give a sense of how something "feels". And I have to say, Ruin felt much better in the list than I anticipated.
First: with it's Affinity, Ruin ends up being as Focus efficient as the Berserker in the early turns (or on any turn that you don't want to give it Focus) while amazingly being able to cover more distance. Ruin's free charge is 1" further than a Berserker's free run, assuming you're just trying to close the distance (which is all you're doing in the early game).
Second: Ruin is going to accomplish much, much more with zero Focus on it than a Berserker could ever dream of. MAT 8 is a tremendous improvement that allows Ruin to raw-dawg it's attack rolls against a lot of models with decent-to-great odds of success. Soul Taker allows Ruin to clear the area around it for free if you're able to get to living models, making it leagues more effective against infantry than a (non-exploding) Berserker ever would be.
Third: Dispel is neat to have. I'm still nowhere near comfortable with making it the only anti-upkeep in the list, but it eliminates some concerns when debating where to send the big guy. For instance, I could have put Silence of Death on Ruin and thrown him into a clump of Nihilators; he'd get rid of Hollow and very likely kill everything in his melee range, all in one go. Which in turn frees up Eiryss2 to either stay safe, or snipe something.
Finally, and most importantly: Ruin's threat range with Butcher3 is bonkers. 14" total with Energizer and including Reach. Ruin can get 12" up the table turn 1 (Boundless Charge + Energizer), so if you go first you can easily have him 19" in on the table. That allows him to strike 33" in on the table (at the furthest extent). If your opponent deployed their full 10" in on the table, that gives them 5" or so of wiggle room to advance where Ruin can't get the first hit on them.
Now, all of that is serious vacuum theorycraft; things will rarely be so straightforward in game (models in the way, terrain, etc). But it does illustrate the point: Ruin can range out very, very far. If Butcher can hang back somewhere safe Ruin can arrive with a full payload of Focus, ready to do some work. Ruin can either act as the initiator of the attrition trade - setting up follow up charges from your infantry - or it can hang back and very comfortably make distance on anything your infantry get to around turn 2-3.
That said, Ruin does have at least two problems in this list:
1) As mentioned, he's a bullet magnet, and a pretty expensive one. I can't afford to put any kind of support in for him - some source of Repair, Shield Guard - and even if I could I don't think it's worth it for just one warjack (plus he'd spook the repair people).
The upside to this is that any guns that are going into Ruin won't be aimed at Butcher. Against some lists you can present a pretty ugly choice of options, especially if they were hoping to soften Butcher up for a kill later: any shots you dump into him aren't slowing down Ruin, and vice versa. It also may be possible to cook up a formation that hides Ruin behind argus centered Blizzard clouds, in Butcher's cloud for the DEF bonus, which may give you a turn of relative safety (or Vengeance) against some lists. But there will also be plenty of times where Ruin will just have to take it on the chin and know that it's buying you valuable board presence while doing so.
2) Ruin is an Abomination. This is more of a problem in my list where I already have an Abomination (Fenris) and I have a non-Fearless unit (Kayazy Assassins). In an objective game I can get around that a bit with Effigy of Valor, but in every scenario without objectives it becomes a careful game of trying to keep at least the Assassins 3.01" away from Ruin (Fenris is a bit easier as he's usually running screaming up a flank). Unfortunately, my best source of a high CMD commander - the Iron Fang Kovnik - ended up being cut to make points, so the Assassins are stuck testing at an iffy CMD 9. I'm sure that will come back to bite me at least once.
A possible change is switching out the Assassins for BD IFP. This isn't really feasible right now, as I'm waiting for the plastic IFP boxes to come out in June before I consider buying a second unit. I'm also becoming a little more enamored with the Assassins the more I use them; they run into meta issues here and there, but they're still damn fine melee infantry. If only the Underboss still granted Fearless like in Mk. 1!
So, the takeaway for me is (perhaps not unsurprisingly): Ruin is worth it, at least in any Butcher list. That Affinity is just so damn good. Ruin jolly well may prove to be "worth it" in any list, but I'm not willing to go quite that far yet.
List Changes/Tweaks:
Ruin is the main tweak in this list, and I'm fairly confident he'll be staying in. I miss the IFK and sorta miss Corbeau - she's amazing every few games, but is often undone by positioning complications - so I'd of course love to get one or both back into the list. However, the only way I can see to do that at present is to drop one of the cav solos or the Widowmakers, and none of that feels like a good idea.
I could get them back in by dropping Eiryss2 and taking the dismount off the Drakun, but that feels dangerous. Ruin then becomes my only source of upkeep removal, and although he has fantastic melee threat, I don't like the idea of having to devote him to that job. Plus he doesn't do anything against animi, nor can he deny Focus allocation in a bubble. The biggest upside to that trade would be that I could weasel Eiryss2 into my Sorscha2 list, which is mighty tempting. But I'll probably stick with what I have for now (once Ruin actually comes out, that is).
I could get them back in by dropping Eiryss2 and taking the dismount off the Drakun, but that feels dangerous. Ruin then becomes my only source of upkeep removal, and although he has fantastic melee threat, I don't like the idea of having to devote him to that job. Plus he doesn't do anything against animi, nor can he deny Focus allocation in a bubble. The biggest upside to that trade would be that I could weasel Eiryss2 into my Sorscha2 list, which is mighty tempting. But I'll probably stick with what I have for now (once Ruin actually comes out, that is).
Closing Thoughts:
Butcher3 continues to be fun to play, and Ruin is just amazing. I haven't gotten any crazy results out of it yet, but I can feel just by putting the model on the table and observing what it's capable of that it has a ton of potential. That's a tremendous breath of fresh air after years and years of having to polish turds into diamonds with most of the other Khador warjacks, and Ruin does it all with almost no input from the 'caster.
Also as mentioned previously, I think this may be the last time I drop Butcher3 into Skorne, unless the opposing pairing really seems to favor it. Sorscha2 feels much more capable into that match up in general, if for no other reason than I can keep her safe more easily than Butcher (who usually has to expose himself to exert pressure and/or get work done). Even though this game went well for me, it just as easily couldn't have in ways that Butcher3's list can't really account for (it's plan is just to keep punching things to death), and I feel that Sorscha2's suite of spells, abilities, and her feat can handle Skorne better in general. So hopefully I'll get the chance to try that match up out more in the future.
Next up for me in Warmachine should be another 50 point Steamroller, so keep an eye out for a rundown of how that turns out. Until then, thanks very much for reading!
Butcher3 continues to be fun to play, and Ruin is just amazing. I haven't gotten any crazy results out of it yet, but I can feel just by putting the model on the table and observing what it's capable of that it has a ton of potential. That's a tremendous breath of fresh air after years and years of having to polish turds into diamonds with most of the other Khador warjacks, and Ruin does it all with almost no input from the 'caster.
Also as mentioned previously, I think this may be the last time I drop Butcher3 into Skorne, unless the opposing pairing really seems to favor it. Sorscha2 feels much more capable into that match up in general, if for no other reason than I can keep her safe more easily than Butcher (who usually has to expose himself to exert pressure and/or get work done). Even though this game went well for me, it just as easily couldn't have in ways that Butcher3's list can't really account for (it's plan is just to keep punching things to death), and I feel that Sorscha2's suite of spells, abilities, and her feat can handle Skorne better in general. So hopefully I'll get the chance to try that match up out more in the future.
Next up for me in Warmachine should be another 50 point Steamroller, so keep an eye out for a rundown of how that turns out. Until then, thanks very much for reading!
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