Now that we know everything in Warmachine: Reckoning, we arrive at the most important part of any release cycle: assigning arbitrary, untested evaluations to the newest batch of models. Bonus points if you can declare your faction the "winner" or "loser" of the book (both cash out for equal levels vacuous nerd cred, so don't worry which side you end up on).
One of the bigger possible mistakes one can make when evaluating new releases is to commit too early to a concrete impression. That gets even worse in the context of internet discussion, where its often seen as more valuable to be first than well reasoned. Add in the heavy influence of excitement/disappointment that comes with seeing rules for new models (or entirely new concepts you'd never have thought of), and it can be surprisingly easy to draw conclusions that don't hold up long term.
With that in mind, I've tried to let me initial impressions cool a bit before forming semi-final opinions on Khador's newest additions (final opinions require playtesting, which I'm itching to do soon). Join me after the break for the breakdown of Khador's new shinies.
In ascending order of positivity:
Mad Dog: Ever since the art for this model was shown as part of the original Warmachine: Reckoning teaser trailer a year or so ago, I've been trying to come up with some combination of rules that would make me excited to use a Berserker variant. Everything I could come up with was absurd and/or unlikely, so I resigned myself to believing that Mad Dog would be the stinker of the book. I just hoped it would be the only one.
Turns out, I was right to abandon hope! The Mad Dog turned out to be pretty damn underwhelming.
In fairness: the Mad Dog has some good things going for it. MAT 5 is sad, but Crusher gives it solid odds to hit most of the infantry it'll be trying to Trample over. Jury-Rigged [SPD] is a pretty terrible rule in general - and it's almost cruel on a model with Unstable - but it does give you another great way to spend Focus and possibly get into position to explode. And the Mad Dog is costed very appropriately for it's terrible rules: it's the cheapest heavy warjack in the game, coming in at a gentlemanly 5 points.
The SPD bonus in general is nice: it gives the Mad Dog a native Trample distance that actually might work out periodically (7" Tramples are impossible; 9" Tramples are at least feasible) and it even gives you the long shot possibility of using Jury-Rigged, running 12" into some infantry, and then either jamming them up a bit, or exploding and taking a chunk of them out.
You may be noticing a trend. I think the absolute best thing about the Mad Dog is that it's a cheaper way to do what I wanted to with the Berserker: load it up with Focus, hope for an Unstable explosion in a juicy spot, and if you're lucky it'll do something else useful before it dies/explodes. The Mad Dog is faster (while also fueling Unstable), cheaper, and might actually be able to Trample into random better explosion/jam spots.
That said, "better Berserker" is still pretty bad, especially since the Mad Dog is working with a pair of P+S 14 melee weapons, making it extremely ill equipped to deal with enemy heavies/colossals. That is obviously intentional - the cheap cost of the Mad Dog leaves plenty of points for the rest of your list to do heavy lifting - but it doesn't make it any more compelling.
The Mad Dog seems like a "fun" release, and in that regard its a resounding success: I can think of few things more entertaining then trampling a crazy warjack into the middle of a bunch of infantry then having it explode. Some players are already theorycrafting ways to leverage the low cost of the Mad Dog in spam lists with 'casters like Vlad1 and Karchev, while others are just happy to be able to include a cheap Trample-bot. I'm in the third camp that probably won't even bother to assemble one, but I do appreciate the upsides of it, and I'm interested in seeing if anyone can carve out a niche for this model.
Rager: When I was brainstorming ideas for what would make me actually interested in taking Mad Dog, one thought was that it could have Shield Guard. I had no basis for that thought - nothing in the artwork for Mad Dog screams "I block things!" - but once the thought entered my head I couldn't get rid of it. The prospect of a cheap, warjack based Shield Guard in Khador was absolutely delicious, and it pained me greatly to give up the ghost and admit that it was never going to happen.
The Rager is proof that dreams do come true.
Everything important about the Rager can be summed up in five little words: Six point Shield Guard warjack. After years of having to rely on Merc models for Shield Guard options (including pulling 'Jack Marshal shenanigans to get access to models like the Vanguard) having access to an in faction warjack with Shield Guard is a wonderful boon. One other nice thing about the Rager is that, being a warjack, it's automatically eligible in a large portion of theme lists, which makes revisiting some of those compelling.
The Rager also manages to still be a relatively cheap Shield Guard warjack option; more expensive than most of it's light counterparts (while having comparatively more boxes and a higher total ARM) but cheaper than every other heavy warjack with Shield Guard (significantly so in some cases). That makes it relatively easy to fit into lists that have a strong need for a Shield Guard, and it makes the Rager a very easy way to spend warjack points for 'casters that would rather load up on infantry. Any 'caster with +6 WJP can have a free ARM 20, 31 box Shield Guard following them around all game.
Being on a Berserker chassis hurts the Rager in a couple of ways: it loses out on one box of Cortex straight away on top of having two fewer boxes than other Khador heavies, it is only ARM 18 base, and it has Unstable. But being a Berserker variant pays off significantly in the long run (retroactive pun) by giving the Rager Aggressive. This is a huge boon for a Shield Guard warjack, as you'll never need to allocate it any focus in order for it to keep up with whatever it's trying to bodyguard. That makes the Rager a zero-resource cost investment relative to it's 'caster, and it even makes the Rager a decent candidate for 'Jack Marshaling (since you only really care about getting it on the table, and going Autonomous doesn't really hinder it from doing it's job.)
The Rager is probably the release I'm most excited about that I'm also probably going to use the least. Truth be told, there are only a few lists that I've ever even run a Shield Guard model in, but it's hard to say how much of that is a lack of wanting a Shield Guard, and how much of it is not having a really good Shield Guard option available. I can say for sure there's at least one list I'm going to try to fit a Rager into ASAP (Butcher3), and I can definitely see including one in other lists.
I'm very much looking forward to experimenting with a Rager or two in the future. Now here's hoping the inevitable Berseker/Mad Dog/Rager kit comes along faster than the Kodiak/Grolar kit has.
Ruin: I'm mentioning it here for two reasons: 1) although Ruin is pretty well known (and loved) at this point, it's still part of the Reckoning releases, so I'd feel remiss leaving it out of the list, and 2) I managed to get the arm I was missing from PP's part replacement team (great turnaround, all things considered) so now I have the model together. And it is goddamn gorgeous.
There isn't much to say about Ruin that hasn't already been said. It's a fantastic release for Khador, and an absolute monster of a model with all the Butchers (who are one of the stronger sets of 'casters in Khador to start with). The only reason I don't place Ruin higher on the list is because it's "only" a character warjack, so I feel like it's going to have less impact than Zerkova2 and Victor. But more on those in...
Obavnik Kommander Zerkova and Reaver Guard: ...right now.
Zerkova2 is tricky to get a handle on. She's inherently kind of complicated just because she's a warcaster, but she also has some other layers that make her interesting to think about:
1) She's a warcaster unit that brings along two Counter Charging, Berserk (though not on any Counter Charges), Reach Weapon Masters that happen to give her Self-Sacrifice fuel. I'm still trying to figure out how useful the Reaver Guards will be, but I figure at worst they'll be easy targets for Blizzards to protect Zerkova2 and great little combat solos to toss into the fray once the lines start to close. Seems pretty good for 1 point apiece.
2) She is, in pretty much every way, the spell slinger I wanted her original incarnation to be. Telgesh Mark gives her an easy way to project her spells - Eliminators have proven to be fantastic targets for it in Mercs, Outriders can probably also do well, and even the Reaver Guard can suffice in a pinch.
Most importantly, Zerkova2 actually has some good spells to arc! Dissolution Bolt is mostly an upgrade over Razor Wind: same cost, lower RNG, same POW, but it also shuts down enemy channelers which may be really powerful in some match ups. Hoarfrost is a nice step up in POW for one higher cost over Razor Wind (Zerkova1's "work horse" spell), but most importantly it has a critical Stationary effect in it's AOE. Combine that with Occult Whispers for 4d6 to-hit rolls (off of Focus 7 for accuracy) and you have potentially great way to set up assassinations. While not as certain as Sorscha1/Sorscha2 flinging Freezing Grip, Zerkova2 can throw out a Hoarfrost from a much safer position, making it less of an "all in" play than either Sorscha (though Sorscha1 will be leaning more on her feat/Tempest to set up assassinations most of the time).
3) Zerkova2's feat is surprisingly complex. The effect is straightforward - all models in her control area that can cast spells can immediately cast one spell on their card without spending focus/taking an action - but the ways you can make use of it are interesting, especially when you consider units with Valachev (Aiyana & Holt, or Tactical Arcanist Corps). The fact that it's an out-of-activation casting allows for some very cool set ups - run and attack, a la Madrak2's feat - and Occult Whispers makes all those spells deadly accurate.
4) Zerkova2 and her unit have Sacred Ward, and she retained Banishing Ward on her spell list. That makes her Khador's best option at spell denial, especially since she won't ever need to consider putting Banishing Ward on herself (something Zerkova1 still need to do from time to time).
5) Zerkova2's Inspiration[Greylords] ability makes it much easier to run Greylords around Doom Reavers, including her Reaver Guard. That alleviates some of the concerns I had for managing the inevitable support package she's going to want; at minimum, either Ternion or TAC + Valachev for some cloud cover, both of which would be immune to the Reaver's Abomination. It also allows her to auto-rally the Outriders she's going to be inevitably taking, which is also nice.
Overall, I'm still coming to grips with what Zerkova2 can do, what her list is going to look like, etc. I don't think she unseats either of Khador's most obviously powerful 'casters (Butcher3 and Sorscha2), but I do think she brings some extremely compelling things to the table that put her on the "solid" side of the power curve. If nothing else, Zerkova2 appears to be the faction's absolute best anti-infantry, anti-spellcasting 'caster, which makes her a very easy pick for an anti-Cryx 'caster in your list set.
Victor: Few models have carried as much hope and hype for me in recent release memory as Victor has. I've been a supporter and user of Conquest since it originally came out, but I've always been more than willing to admit that Conquest has some noteworthy flaws that have always bothered me. Conquest was often more the model I'd bring because I wanted a colossal, period, versus actually being excited about anything specific about it (though critical Devastation is, was, and always will be one of the most fun rules ever printed).
Early spoilers about Victor (from the TempleCon keynote presentation) gave me high hopes. The teaser spoilers for the Siege Mortar made it sound like an excellent gun: inaccurate (both literally and practically) but long range, AOE 5, and with several ammo types. One of which was extremely exciting: the spoiler was that everything hit by the attack would be set on fire, which made it sound like Victor would be flinging around 5" Vanquisher shots. Continuous Fire on hit has proven to be a very, very potent anti-infantry tool (much better than blast damage, unless you can somehow boost it or get to silly high numbers), so right away I though Victor had potential.
The prospect of having a legitimately good colossal kept me on the hype train all the way up to when the spoilers started to come out of L&L. One of the first things I did when all of the images of various entries started showing up was dig up the rules for Victor.
Victor turned out to be pretty great. It's actually much better than I had hoped.
The Siege Mortar is, in almost every way, better than I anticipated. RNG 20 is fantastic, as is it still being POW 15 (though that's at best a secondary feature of the blast in most cases). While it's Inaccurate, as expected, it also picked up Arcing Fire as a bit of compensation, allowing you some additional flexibility in where you put your shots. It also has a Minimum Range, as expected, but unlike the Mortar it's Minimum Range is only 6" (versus the Mortar's 8" Minimum Range).
The absolute best thing about the Siege Mortar are the Ammo Types it brings to the table. Far and away the best is Incindiary: it gives Victor a powerful tool against infantry, while also giving Victor a way to threaten opposing 'casters. Inaccurate keeps all but the lowest DEF 'casters safe from direct hits, but even drifting templates stand a decent chance of catching the intended target (thanks to the 5" AOE). The other two ammo types - Crater and Flare - will have their moments (especially against lists that are resistant/immune to Fire) but I'm anticipating Incindiary being the workhorse Ammo Type.
Victor's secondary guns are likely to be more consistent and useful than Conquest's as well. They're shorter RNG - 10 instead of 12 - and the same POW, but Victor's Autocannons are probably going to generate more attacks on average than Conquest's Secondary Batterys do. The biggest issue that Conquest tends to run into (other than RAT 4) is that the Linked rule rarely provides you additional shots when you want them: against infantry, you either aren't killing them due to being unable to hit or consistently damage (POW 6 blast damage is awfully sad) or you're killing you're initial targets with each gun, which gives you a grand total of one shot with each gun. Linked often ends up being a complex, time consuming way to effectively get a to-hit and/or blast damage re-roll.
Victor's Autocannons are much more straightforward: Autofire[d3] apiece. At worst, you'll be generating as many shots as Conquest probably would have; at best you'll be generating two more shots per side. In a situation where Victor can aim, and/or you can throw an accuracy buff it's way, Victor stands a good chance at picking off a handful of infantry models in a turn, which is the hallmark of any half-decent colossal. The Autocannons also have the (brand new) Flak Fire rule, which increases their accuracy against targets with Flight. Neat, and technically better than not having the rule, but I'm not sure how often it's going to come up. Angels better watch out! (Not really).
Finally, and most noteworthy to me because I thought there was no chance in hell of both these things happening, is that Victor has the exact same melee output as Conquest - two P+S 22 Open Fist weapons - along with the same damage grid (though that isn't too surprising). And how much would you expect to pay for all this colossal goodness?
How about one point less than Conquest?
I was fully expecting one of two things to happen. Either: 1) Victor's increased ranged attack potency would result in a melee power reduction (P+S 21, maybe as low as 20 somehow), or 2) Victor would cost the same as Conquest; possibly even be one point more (because "lol khador warjackz"). I never would have imagined in a thousand years that Victor would have those guns, that melee, and be 18 points. I damn sure am not going to complain about it either.
So, Victor is amazing. Even after giving it a few days to cool off, I'm still extremely excited to see what Victor is capable of. At the very least, it should provide the long range, threatening fire support platform I had hoped that Conquest would be. At absolute best, Victor may be just what Harkevich needed in order to scrape him off the bottom of the Khador competitive 'caster barrel; testing Harkevich lists with one/two Victors is high on my "to do" list.
Time will tell how good Victor really is. Early reports are that it is as effective as hoped on the table top (based on early proxy games), and I'm certainly going to be proxying it myself here soon. I'm unsure as to how much Victor replaces Conquest in the Khador warjack stable, but my gut feeling is that Victor ends up being a much better "generalist" choice, with Conquest only being really applicable if it's specific tools are useful (which feels like a short list, but definitely not an empty one).
Ironically, Zerkova2 may have a place for Conquest - critical Stationary the opposing 'caster, then lay into them with a guaranteed 5 shots - and it will probably be what I end up trying out with her, as Victor's actual release date is some as-of-yet-unknown day in the future.
That is probably the worst thing about Victor: we have no idea when it's coming out. Though the hope is that it's not too far off, it (and all the new colossals) just being variants of the existing models. Until then, Conquest can enjoy some increased table time as a Victor proxy.
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Overall, I think Khador got an extremely solid set of releases in this book. There is a not-insignificant amount of negative sentiment floating around most Khador discussion right now, and I can appreciate where a lot of it is coming from. Many players were hoping for something to help bring Man-o-War or Assault Kommandos up a few notches on the competitive spectrum, or for some other kind of support solo to help out Khador in general. I understand being frustrated if that is what you were really hoping for, though I don't share the same sentiment (for reasons that are long enough to deserve it's own post, though I don't think I'll go into it).
However, that is complaining about what Khador didn't get, which is mostly mental masturbation. For example: I'm all for hating on the Mad Dog warjack for being mostly useless in a competitive environment (or at least seems so after some examination). I cannot, however, condone hating on the Mad Dog because it is useless in a competitive environment (or at least seems so after some examination) and because it cost Khador some phantom support solo everyone is convinced we would have gotten instead.
This isn't even making lemonade out of lemons: Khador got some genuinely great releases in this cycle. Models that will probably become staples in lists for years to come. Hell, even the bottom feeder Mad Dog is almost certainly at least fun to use in some janky lists.
I really should know better by now. This happens every release cycle, and I'm sure in another month or two, everything will have evened out. But man, I did not expect this kind of reaction after reading the model entries. That was probably the most surprising thing out of this release cycle. Well, that and the Rager. Didn't see that coming at all.
Keep an eye out for an upcoming post detailing some lists that I have kicking around to make use of some of our new releases. I actually had a ninja shopper pick me up Zerkova2 at L&L, so I'm hoping to get her into the rotation ASAP to see what she's capable of. And of course, there's no way I'm missing out on that sweet, sweet Harkevich + Victor (x2?) action.
Until next time, thanks very much for reading!
How many Berserkers does it take to become viable?
ReplyDeleteKarchev T4
-Mad Dog x7
- Rager x2
Ternion
min Demo Corps
min Demo Corps
I'm not sure how many Berserkers it takes, but that looks like a damn fine start. :)
DeleteOne of the best things about the Mad Dog is how much interest it has given people in revisiting Karchev and Vlad1 with silly numbers of warjacks. I'm not sure how well any of those lists will work, but I'm very interested in hearing how it goes for folks over the coming months.
And you bring up the very good point that the Rager is a godsend for Karchev. A cheap, Shield Guard heavy with Aggressive is about the best thing he could ever ask for.
"That gets even worse in the context of internet discussion, where its often seen as more valuable to be first than well reasoned."
ReplyDeleteHey! Are you jabbin' at me? ;)
Haha, not at all!
DeleteIt actually hasn't been too bad this cycle, but one of the things that always drives me nuts with new releases is that there is that some players seem to be in a race to be the first to grade everything. That behavior is slightly obnoxious, but easy to ignore. What is more frustrating is how early grading/rating/whatever sometimes becomes canonized, and it can skew perceptions for months (eg. the initial reaction towards Outriders, vs. how most players found them to actually perform on the table).
It's only been happening since...Superiority? So you think I'd be used to it by now. :)
I adore manowars.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I feel that adding one model (caster or solo or UA) to fix them isn’t going to make anyone really happy.
As long as that model is vaporware, the potential for a magic bullet to fix all MOW problems seems possible. In reality I question how happy the community would really be if said solo was produced. The IFP Kovnik came out and fixed part of the MOW issue—speed. What we found though is that the community didn’t want a utility solo that would make all infantry faster, they wanted something that made MOW worth taking over IFP. I-personally-don’t want a solo to make MOW better. I actually want MOW to be worth taking on their own merits. Since it seems unlikely that PP will give us a new card for them, I am just waiting till MKIII for a revised and re-balanced stat line.
MOW have significant integral flaws in their value to points ratio—especially when compared with say a winterguard death star or a full unit of IFP and UA. They are too expensive to be a really good jamming unit and not deadly enough to be a real competator for prime offensive status. Anything that balances the points issue doesn’t balance their role problems and anything that balances their effectiveness would need to beef them up to a rediculus level to compensate for an even higher effective cost including the ua/wa/solo. Throw in the meta’s already prepared stance concerning MMs, and I think it much more likely that PP will dance around the issue for another couple years and then revise the entire playing field with a new edition—solving this and other issues in the process. I would respect them more for this, as it would indicate to me that they understand the fundamental meta and design challenges represented by “fixing” MOW in the current edition.
That's assuming that "the issues" get "fixed" with "MkIII".
DeleteThat's too many ifs to hold your breath, I think.
Well yeh, but you can't blaim a guy for dreaming.
ReplyDeletePP is one of the few companies where I'm usually willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Here's hoping.
For what its worth, if I could take your first comment and sticky it to the top of the Khador forums, I would.
DeleteI think that there are some things that can be done to make MoW Shocktroopers and Demo Corps palatable in the current edition. I am not sure how well you could bump them up in terms of being a consistent "competitive" choice, but I don't think it would take much to make either/both units at least casually effective.
A decent UA for either unit would go a long way. I think it is possible for a really, really good UA (that is point costed very aggressively; like the Warspear UA) to possibly even make up the points cost-to-efficacy gulf that MoW Shocks and Demo Corps currently have. I don't know how likely that is, let alone getting two of them, but I think it is possible.
I don't think there is a way to ever save Bombardiers. You'd need a UA with negative cost that gives them Ammo Types to have a hope of pulling them back from the abyss.
I also think that trying to fix all the MoW at once with a solo is a design car wreck waiting to happen. While you could do a general blanket thing regarding their durability that would be a decent enough patch, each unit has specific issues that are probably better served by a UA fixing its particular problem(s). I think the main reason folks pine for a badass support solo for MoW is that it would fix everything in one foul swoop, but I don't think that is really reasonable, or necessarily possible.
Last bit: PP's development cycles are so far out that even if they did hear the many cries of Khador players that want some MoW help (and I can't imagine they haven't at this point) they are sort of powerless to do so for a couple of release cycles, at least. Any attempt at MoW buffing isn't likely to show up until the next book, or the one after that.
I'm still pulling for Karchev to get slotted into a MoW suit. The torso is the right size and everything, and the fluff finally supports the hope I've been carrying since Legends. :)
I dunno.
ReplyDeleteThe big problem is that unlike warspears (a single unit) a solo or “fix” would need to upgrade three different unit types—each with their own strategic specialty. We see shocks and demo corps periodically as it is, demo corps in particular. So I agree, it wouldn’t take much to bring them into play as a viable casual choice. The only way I can think of fixing all MOW in one shot would be a character solo that granted/tactics assault and counter charge.
I’ve done the theoryhammer thing with bombardiers with a cra variant that also adds 1 inch to the blast radius or switches ammo types. The bombardiers real problem is that 5 3 inch blast markers at range 10 is pretty terrible. At that range they’re basically in charge distance of any infantry they’re shooting at—and with their relatively low RAT, they can’t get major work done. At 11 points, they need to get a lot of work done to earn their points back. I think, if you added a solo that buffed all MOW, bombardiers would benefit the most since it wouldn’t feel like you were increasing their points exclusively. The challenge I see is that anything that buffed MOW enough to really be effective, especially all MOW, would set a new standard for retconning and/or power creap, probably both. That is historically a step PP has been loath to take for obvious and very good reason—in the case of MKI, it marked the end of the edition.
Could we have a MOW caster? Something that lets us take MOW as part of his/her battle group? Sure. I maintain though that you’d have to really limit such a caster such that the bonuses they provide only worked with MOW, or people would just use them with IFP and Death star. I’ve thought about it a lot and I really think the only solution is a complete redesign of MOW in general, possibly the faction as a hole. Until then I’ll just play my MOW in heart of darkness and enjoy wishful thinking.
Oh, and Special K in a MOW suit would be swee swee sweet.
I agree with your thoughts regarding a "patch" MoW solo. It would need to be pretty damn over the top in order to somehow cover the disparate needs of the three units, and I just don't think PP wants to go that route. Shocks and DCs are arguably what everyone is really pulling for when they say they want MoW to get more table time, and those are much easier to drag back up (via a lean, mean UA).
DeleteThere is another factor in the MoW discussion that I think gets missed out on sometimes: PP doesn't aim to make everything competitive. They certainly cultivate a competitive culture, but they also know that their products cater to casual players and hobbyists as well. For as much as some of us may lament MoW, there are also plenty of players that have fun with them (I know several players in real life and on the forums that run janky MoW lists with success). Not to say that MoW are fine; more that it may not be registering as something "urgent" to the devs.
Bombardiers are one of the only units in the game that I've ever used that actually made me angry at how bad they were. My first use of them was under Butcher1 vs. a Shae pirate horde - a paradise for their AOEs - and they still failed miserably to kill anything (they managed to avoid getting tied up by hiding behind other models, so at least Arcing Fire was nice). They need...a lot of help.
I also agree that any kind of MoW 'caster would need to be pretty tightly designed to not just flat out work better with Khador's other infantry. I'd have had less faith earlier in Mk. 2 (when PP's design doctrine was mostly stitching together existing rules), but now that the devs are much more willing to come up with new rules and spells, I could definitely see a design coming out that works. I think the result would be a 'caster that works well with Khador infantry in general, works better with MoW, and probably with a theme force that really dials up the MoW'ing.
Last thing I heard, Legends did not herald the coming of MKII. The knowledge that MKII is coming made them make Legends as BS as it was. Not the wisest decision IMHO.
DeleteYeah, if that anecdote is true (I've heard it before as well) I think it was, in hindsight, kind of a terrible idea.
DeleteIt may have been great fun to absolutely blow out the rules (and they damn sure did with how bonkers some of that stuff was at the time) but the trick is that few things were dramatically changed from Mk. 1 to Mk. 2, so the crazy overpowered models that were introduced in Legends ended up being still pretty damn overpowered when scaled down in the Mk. 2 transition. :)